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Fast nukes + EMP to take out a protoss who's going fast arbiter?
Arb is:
Tribunal 200/150
Arb 100/350
Spells 450/450 (incl core upgrade)
Total 750/950
Nuke/EMP is:
Facility/Covert 150/200
Vessel/Ghost 125/325
Spells 300/300 (not incl reactor upgrade)
Nuke Silo 100/100
Nuke 200/200
Total 875/1125
For just nuke:
Covert 50/50
Ghost 25/75
Spells 100/100
Nuke/Silo 300/300
Total 475/525
And the thing is, when a nuke fails, it costs less than when a recall fails (nukes are less expensive than 40 supply of units)
And for 100/100 more you can get lockdown.
The thing with ghosts is they are a lot like a slower, but cloaking version of the HT drop that can kill toss expansions cold if he doesn't have obs or storm.
I'm wondering if Violet vs Mind's Ace match in KT/Wemade could serve as a good example of the play in action (I won't spoiler the outcome here but you should go watch the game, and suffice to say Mind does kill one of Violet's bases with a nuke).
Thoughts?
 
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Thats the old Boxer build.
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Yeah it seems like Boxer was the inspiration (much like Oov was for Dual Armory) but this time the micro is married to a specific timing and to counter a specific toss build. I guess a better question would be whether this would counter fast arb?
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
Seeing nukes used is always badass.
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Possibly a build involving ghost and lockdown. I think nukes are a bit unreliable, a lot of gas and minerals invested that might be lost on an unsuccessful nuke. Flash likes to play rather safe also, but just speculation ^^
It will be great to see what he will unleash upon the tosses!
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I'm pretty sure ob's timing is loooong before ghost timing and if any toss scouted the ghosts he would definitely cannon up and put an obs at each base. Basically this fails horribly unless you hide it perfectly and you only get one shot with it if you do, and then the toss just steamrolls you.
Boxer won that famous game with this a long time ago, before mechanics were as good as they are now. I don't think it would work in a modern game unless you were rediculously lucky or the toss very very bad.
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I love seeing nukes used, but the two recent games where we've seen them used has made me lose faith in them somewhat.
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I definitely do not think so, the EMP+Nuke thing is pretty much map specific for Match Point (you're able to take out that one expo from inside your own base). If Flash is working hard on a TvP build I bet it's gonna be applicable on most maps.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Remember, Flash said that his new build isn't really a "build"... it's more of a late game plan.
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On November 26 2009 04:24 ghermination wrote:
I'm pretty sure ob's timing is loooong before ghost timing and if any toss scouted the ghosts he would definitely cannon up and put an obs at each base. Basically this fails horribly unless you hide it perfectly and you only get one shot with it if you do, and then the toss just steamrolls you.
Boxer won that famous game with this a long time ago, before mechanics were as good as they are now. I don't think it would work in a modern game unless you were rediculously lucky or the toss very very bad.
I don't think it's hard for Flash to keep observers away from his base.
You can't just stroll in and out like vs some D newbie.
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I doubt it's something so elaborate... Personally I would guess it is some sort of mid game timing that allows him to pressure toss and expand at the same time. Most likely forigners won't even be able to tell the difference between it and builds used already =p
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It's not Flash playstyle to base a whole matchup on a gadget like Nuke.
Nuke is cool, can be useful, sometimes devastating, but it won't become standart, ever. Too unreliable, too expensive. And if you think about it, paying 875/1125 to kill a nexus which cost 400/0, that's really not a very good deal. Better get a control group of tank with that gas.
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Why would he work on a strategy for months that has such an obvious and easy counter?
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United States10774 Posts
On November 26 2009 04:40 Holgerius wrote:
Why would he work on a strategy for months that has such an obvious and easy counter?
This.
Flash said it's a new "management style." I doubt it's some strategy that will be used once and will be easily countered in the future.
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On November 26 2009 04:34 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 04:24 ghermination wrote:
I'm pretty sure ob's timing is loooong before ghost timing and if any toss scouted the ghosts he would definitely cannon up and put an obs at each base. Basically this fails horribly unless you hide it perfectly and you only get one shot with it if you do, and then the toss just steamrolls you.
Boxer won that famous game with this a long time ago, before mechanics were as good as they are now. I don't think it would work in a modern game unless you were rediculously lucky or the toss very very bad. I don't think it's hard for Flash to keep observers away from his base.You can't just stroll in and out like vs some D newbie.
You saw the game vs Best right?
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Should calculate timings,Obs,Cloak,Dropship, and what will nuke usage be?, pure harassment?, mind games?, because certainly it won't be "End Game Strategy".
If its for Harassment, I think its a lot better to use 4 vultures, with a dropship, in almost every way, lets say you kill from 6 to 8 probes with 4 vultures and then you lose them, so lets say you laid all the 12 mines you get, then kill 6-8 porbes meaning from 300-400 minerals PLUS rebuilding them and mining time. Lets Say 12 mines 600-700-ish(-300 of your vultures) minerals and 20-30 seconds that you mine more than you opponent. Now that is pretty effective harassment, and it can all come from the regular buildings you will use as Terran, Facotry+Starport.
If you use Nuke you MUST kill the expansion to make it cost effective, beacuse probes WILL BE moved, making your nuke only kill a nexus and maybe pylon gas, if you're lucky enough you might get the Cybernetics Core, but it depends on the position it is so lets say most of the time you just get Pylon+Gas+Nexus, so 600+Rebuilding the nexus, and maybe supply stuck, but as I said before you MUST make it work, because if you throw your Nuke and your ghost gets sniped you will LOSE 200/200 nuke +25/75.
Since Nuke isn't a "End Game" Strategy, the best way to use them would be as Upgrade Terran, because you could time your covert Ops to star right when your 2-1 upgrades are at 1/4 done, and you should have the Vessel already out incase of some 2 base arb play, then you could add the Silo at your 3rd and start Cloak/Ghost/Dropship, and if everything goes according to planed you kill an expansion, by this time I think your 2-1 upgrades will be finishing or will have finished like 10 seconds earlier, so it would be "Ideal" to push at this time,of course since you got more tech you might have 2-3 factories less than you would want, making you factory number 7-8 and making your 2-1 timing a little less DEADLY, but since he probably will be at the same number or less bases you are and you could out produce him, or just take map control, and play less aggressively, this to me is the most "effective" way to see nukes in TvP,
But this still seems very risky, because if your nuke really didn't work, you will end up way behind, since you got spells+add ons, that could've been more factories ending up in more units for a stronger push. So your position would be Less units, less factories, and your regular Protoss will be expecting a lot more units and better macro from your "style of play", so basically, if you lose your nuke, you pretty much lose the game.
The other way I see nukes being used is like a pretty gay Protoss style, basically when P's get Arbs and just recall your expos to fuck up your macro, while they take more expansions, but it would be LATE game, and not Mid.
But you never know, should give it a try XD
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I wouldn't be surprised to see ghosts implemented for lockdown on arbs or something like that, but I doubt nukes would be the center of Flash's strategy, but more or less an end-game option.
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I want to see what ver thinks of this
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Lockdown is more likely than Nukes in my opinion.
It's pretty hard for Protoss to watch the Terran army late game (good Terran have Vessel/Goliath killing all the nearby Observers and if you watch a Flash rep, he explicitly hotkeys Vessels + 3 or 4 Goliaths for the exact purpose). Lockdown is pretty hard to dodge I think given that Ghosts are cloaked (or just plain small) and the benefit of Lockdown is if P backs off, you actually get to kill the Arb as opposed to the never ending EMP cycle where if you finally miss you're screwed.
Still I think it might not be a new unit at all - hard to imagine what it would be though.
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Nuke on tech buildings. you heard it here first.
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I think it has to do with dropships for defense versus recalls. Just random speculation but I think it could work.
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If you drop a tank siege it, nuke, then emp a nexus you can kill it in 13-14 seconds from the drop starting, which is cool. Not terribly useful, but has practical applications on maps like hbr where nuking expos is easy.
He's probs coming up with a new way of fast expoing. Or some kind of new drop ship harrass style. Something managementy, if its not just him messing round.
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I hope 'Flash's new TvP strategy' doesn't become the next Duke Nukem Forever.
Still, if anyone can find something new in the matchup, he can. I can't quite wrap my head around what it could possibly be, but I hope it works. Watching PvT just makes me sigh these days.
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On November 26 2009 06:27 Catch]22 wrote:
Nuke on tech buildings. you heard it here first.
then spread em out..? i usually do anyways.
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On November 26 2009 06:27 Catch]22 wrote:
Nuke on tech buildings. you heard it here first.
More likely to work on Zerg. Protoss doesn't usually keep their tech buildings clumped together.
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Killing a nexus is doing far more damage than 400/0. Like, people build them for a reason.
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Even if they are spread out, just taking out an arbiter tribunal or a defiler mound at a perfect timing would(COULD) be awesome.
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You have to consider that protoss has more income in both areas than terran.
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I'm sorry, but this is such pointless speculation that has clear holes in it. Flash has given (basically) no hints on what his new tvp style could be, and guessing randomly is quite silly, IMO. -_- Also, as people has said before, its more on management style (supposedly) than on basic strategy. And, also as people have said, nuke emp/builds have a silly/easy counter. Flash wouldn't base his WHOLE tvp style on such a silly gimmicky build.
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United States10774 Posts
exactly.
do you guys really think flash has been working on a nuke strategy for months and believes it will drastically improve his tvp? he SAID it's a MANAGEMENT change, not some creative strategy that works once or twice
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Mass Wraith-Optic Flare or mid-game bio-tech-switch-mass-lockdown-vulture FTW!
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EPT
