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Active: 1594 users

Flash's new TvP build (speculation)

Blogs > t_co
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1 2 Next All
t_co
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States702 Posts
November 25 2009 19:15 GMT
#1
Fast nukes + EMP to take out a protoss who's going fast arbiter?

Arb is:

Tribunal 200/150
Arb 100/350
Spells 450/450 (incl core upgrade)
Total 750/950

Nuke/EMP is:

Facility/Covert 150/200
Vessel/Ghost 125/325
Spells 300/300 (not incl reactor upgrade)
Nuke Silo 100/100
Nuke 200/200
Total 875/1125

For just nuke:

Covert 50/50
Ghost 25/75
Spells 100/100
Nuke/Silo 300/300
Total 475/525

And the thing is, when a nuke fails, it costs less than when a recall fails (nukes are less expensive than 40 supply of units)

And for 100/100 more you can get lockdown.

The thing with ghosts is they are a lot like a slower, but cloaking version of the HT drop that can kill toss expansions cold if he doesn't have obs or storm.

I'm wondering if Violet vs Mind's Ace match in KT/Wemade could serve as a good example of the play in action (I won't spoiler the outcome here but you should go watch the game, and suffice to say Mind does kill one of Violet's bases with a nuke).

Thoughts?

*
"Look, don't congratulate us when we buy a company, congratulate us when we sell it. Because any fool can overpay and buy a company, so long as there is money to buy it." --Henry Kravis
mdb
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
Bulgaria4059 Posts
November 25 2009 19:20 GMT
#2
Thats the old Boxer build.
t_co
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States702 Posts
November 25 2009 19:21 GMT
#3
Yeah it seems like Boxer was the inspiration (much like Oov was for Dual Armory) but this time the micro is married to a specific timing and to counter a specific toss build. I guess a better question would be whether this would counter fast arb?
"Look, don't congratulate us when we buy a company, congratulate us when we sell it. Because any fool can overpay and buy a company, so long as there is money to buy it." --Henry Kravis
Snet *
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States3573 Posts
November 25 2009 19:23 GMT
#4
Seeing nukes used is always badass.
Abjurer
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Sweden208 Posts
November 25 2009 19:23 GMT
#5
Possibly a build involving ghost and lockdown. I think nukes are a bit unreliable, a lot of gas and minerals invested that might be lost on an unsuccessful nuke. Flash likes to play rather safe also, but just speculation ^^

It will be great to see what he will unleash upon the tosses!
bw<3 cj<3
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-25 19:28:55
November 25 2009 19:24 GMT
#6
I'm pretty sure ob's timing is loooong before ghost timing and if any toss scouted the ghosts he would definitely cannon up and put an obs at each base. Basically this fails horribly unless you hide it perfectly and you only get one shot with it if you do, and then the toss just steamrolls you.

Boxer won that famous game with this a long time ago, before mechanics were as good as they are now. I don't think it would work in a modern game unless you were rediculously lucky or the toss very very bad.
U Gotta Skate.
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
November 25 2009 19:27 GMT
#7
I love seeing nukes used, but the two recent games where we've seen them used has made me lose faith in them somewhat.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
November 25 2009 19:32 GMT
#8
I definitely do not think so, the EMP+Nuke thing is pretty much map specific for Match Point (you're able to take out that one expo from inside your own base). If Flash is working hard on a TvP build I bet it's gonna be applicable on most maps.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 25 2009 19:33 GMT
#9
Remember, Flash said that his new build isn't really a "build"... it's more of a late game plan.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
November 25 2009 19:34 GMT
#10
On November 26 2009 04:24 ghermination wrote:
I'm pretty sure ob's timing is loooong before ghost timing and if any toss scouted the ghosts he would definitely cannon up and put an obs at each base. Basically this fails horribly unless you hide it perfectly and you only get one shot with it if you do, and then the toss just steamrolls you.

Boxer won that famous game with this a long time ago, before mechanics were as good as they are now. I don't think it would work in a modern game unless you were rediculously lucky or the toss very very bad.


I don't think it's hard for Flash to keep observers away from his base.

You can't just stroll in and out like vs some D newbie.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
November 25 2009 19:36 GMT
#11
I doubt it's something so elaborate... Personally I would guess it is some sort of mid game timing that allows him to pressure toss and expand at the same time. Most likely forigners won't even be able to tell the difference between it and builds used already =p
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7903 Posts
November 25 2009 19:37 GMT
#12
It's not Flash playstyle to base a whole matchup on a gadget like Nuke.

Nuke is cool, can be useful, sometimes devastating, but it won't become standart, ever. Too unreliable, too expensive. And if you think about it, paying 875/1125 to kill a nexus which cost 400/0, that's really not a very good deal. Better get a control group of tank with that gas.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
November 25 2009 19:40 GMT
#13
Why would he work on a strategy for months that has such an obvious and easy counter?
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2009 19:46 GMT
#14
On November 26 2009 04:40 Holgerius wrote:
Why would he work on a strategy for months that has such an obvious and easy counter?

This.

Flash said it's a new "management style." I doubt it's some strategy that will be used once and will be easily countered in the future.
Chen
Profile Joined June 2009
United States6344 Posts
November 25 2009 20:12 GMT
#15
On November 26 2009 04:34 Cloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2009 04:24 ghermination wrote:
I'm pretty sure ob's timing is loooong before ghost timing and if any toss scouted the ghosts he would definitely cannon up and put an obs at each base. Basically this fails horribly unless you hide it perfectly and you only get one shot with it if you do, and then the toss just steamrolls you.

Boxer won that famous game with this a long time ago, before mechanics were as good as they are now. I don't think it would work in a modern game unless you were rediculously lucky or the toss very very bad.


I don't think it's hard for Flash to keep observers away from his base.

You can't just stroll in and out like vs some D newbie.

You saw the game vs Best right?
never_Nal
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica676 Posts
November 25 2009 20:15 GMT
#16
Should calculate timings,Obs,Cloak,Dropship, and what will nuke usage be?, pure harassment?, mind games?, because certainly it won't be "End Game Strategy".

If its for Harassment, I think its a lot better to use 4 vultures, with a dropship, in almost every way, lets say you kill from 6 to 8 probes with 4 vultures and then you lose them, so lets say you laid all the 12 mines you get, then kill 6-8 porbes meaning from 300-400 minerals PLUS rebuilding them and mining time. Lets Say 12 mines 600-700-ish(-300 of your vultures) minerals and 20-30 seconds that you mine more than you opponent. Now that is pretty effective harassment, and it can all come from the regular buildings you will use as Terran, Facotry+Starport.

If you use Nuke you MUST kill the expansion to make it cost effective, beacuse probes WILL BE moved, making your nuke only kill a nexus and maybe pylon gas, if you're lucky enough you might get the Cybernetics Core, but it depends on the position it is so lets say most of the time you just get Pylon+Gas+Nexus, so 600+Rebuilding the nexus, and maybe supply stuck, but as I said before you MUST make it work, because if you throw your Nuke and your ghost gets sniped you will LOSE 200/200 nuke +25/75.

Since Nuke isn't a "End Game" Strategy, the best way to use them would be as Upgrade Terran, because you could time your covert Ops to star right when your 2-1 upgrades are at 1/4 done, and you should have the Vessel already out incase of some 2 base arb play, then you could add the Silo at your 3rd and start Cloak/Ghost/Dropship, and if everything goes according to planed you kill an expansion, by this time I think your 2-1 upgrades will be finishing or will have finished like 10 seconds earlier, so it would be "Ideal" to push at this time,of course since you got more tech you might have 2-3 factories less than you would want, making you factory number 7-8 and making your 2-1 timing a little less DEADLY, but since he probably will be at the same number or less bases you are and you could out produce him, or just take map control, and play less aggressively, this to me is the most "effective" way to see nukes in TvP,

But this still seems very risky, because if your nuke really didn't work, you will end up way behind, since you got spells+add ons, that could've been more factories ending up in more units for a stronger push. So your position would be Less units, less factories, and your regular Protoss will be expecting a lot more units and better macro from your "style of play", so basically, if you lose your nuke, you pretty much lose the game.

The other way I see nukes being used is like a pretty gay Protoss style, basically when P's get Arbs and just recall your expos to fuck up your macro, while they take more expansions, but it would be LATE game, and not Mid.

But you never know, should give it a try XD
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
November 25 2009 20:23 GMT
#17
I wouldn't be surprised to see ghosts implemented for lockdown on arbs or something like that, but I doubt nukes would be the center of Flash's strategy, but more or less an end-game option.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
November 25 2009 20:32 GMT
#18
I want to see what ver thinks of this
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3016 Posts
November 25 2009 20:51 GMT
#19
Lockdown is more likely than Nukes in my opinion.

It's pretty hard for Protoss to watch the Terran army late game (good Terran have Vessel/Goliath killing all the nearby Observers and if you watch a Flash rep, he explicitly hotkeys Vessels + 3 or 4 Goliaths for the exact purpose). Lockdown is pretty hard to dodge I think given that Ghosts are cloaked (or just plain small) and the benefit of Lockdown is if P backs off, you actually get to kill the Arb as opposed to the never ending EMP cycle where if you finally miss you're screwed.

Still I think it might not be a new unit at all - hard to imagine what it would be though.
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
November 25 2009 21:27 GMT
#20
Nuke on tech buildings. you heard it here first.
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