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Hmm...it is great the TSL is being sponsored but poker just seems like a huge trap to me. Perhaps because of my bad luck?
Experience with poker so far:
I started playing a bit ago, and started at 1c/2c tables as well as 2/5 cent tables and 5/10 tables but I did horrible at those when I started - it seemed like people would call with anything, and I would always get sucked out on no matter what I was holding 
So one of my friends that has made a lot from poker convinced me to deposit a bit and start to play more seriously, and I went ahead and started on 10/25 c tables, which actually seemed to help me do better, as idiots could not just call of their chips and get lucky as often...but I went down a lot, around 170 bux, but then started to go up, and was up 170...and then...
bad beat, after bad beat after bad beat. I have aces, I get sucked out from pocket kings -> trips, or even worse, I remember losing kk/aa to idiotic callers with 7/5 off that would hit two pair and such...
and it's kept going on, I will hit the nut straight, have the hand locked the entire way, and they hit a runner runner flush, or full house, just wtf...
I do not see how it is possible to profit from poker if you are making the "right decisions" but end up losing your backroll for making them. I did go down limits of course, but the same suckouts keep happening, the same types of things, over and over. Like I do not see how it is possible variance wise to be that unlucky.
Is Poker just a trap or what? There surely are not many "fish" online, sighs...do I have to now stick to only exclusively playing kk/aa/ak? I am exaggerating of course, but poker is getting really annoying when you get sucked out on this much.
 
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i don't understand how some people make a profit off of poker but whatever it is they're doing, it works.
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do I have to now stick to only exclusively playing kk/aa/ak?
LOL YEAH DO THIS YOU WILL SEE BETTER RESULTS
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Poker is a zero sum game. Every dollar somebody earns is a dollar somebody else loses. Unless you're really good at playing the odds, don't play for any significant amount of cash, because somebody who's better will just take your money.
Edit: I just noticed that whenever you write poker in a comment, it automatically creates a hotlink to liquidpoker. LOL
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hmm poker poker poker
doesn't seem to work for me.
(just kidding yeah it does.)
also so far I've only played poker twice (10c/20c) with people I know and am up 46 bucks... presumably I will lose that shortly though.
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Calgary25991 Posts
I don't know what to tell you. Obviously if you make the right moves more often than your opponent you are going to win money. How is this a question?
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On November 11 2009 17:12 Mortality wrote:
Poker is a zero sum game. Every dollar somebody earns is a dollar somebody else loses.
That's not true, if you play with someone and the money just goes back and forth between you two, you both lose, and the poker company wins (via rake)
"Is Poker just a trap or what? There surely are not many "fish" online"... Yes, there are that many fish online.
I know your pain man, someone going all in with like 7,4 offsuite preflop and beating your aces hurts.
But after all you WANT them to do that. dont forget that he did have a certain percentage to win with that hand. You want him to take that risk, because 9/10 you win all of his money. 1/10 times he does, that's life, deal with it.
Just keep playing, if you really didnt do any mistakes, got sucked out on really badly, then it's not your fault, youre just unlucky for a moment.
But if losing the money hurts too much, go down to lower stakes again.
Thinking "I'll go to higher stakes, because there the people are not as retarded and dont call with nothing and suck out" is NOT the right way to think.
You want people to be stupid and to call you with stupid shit, just adapt your game and play tighter, they will only suck out on you a certain percentage of the time, as long as you play long enough.
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On November 11 2009 17:03 avilo wrote:
I do not see how it is possible to profit from poker if you are making the "right decisions" but end up losing your backroll for making them.
It does not sound like you're making the right decisions then. You shouldn't ever lose your br. And even if you have downswings, that happens. But in the long run you're winning more if you're playing better, and i mean LONG run. Downswings can last a long time.
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Katowice25012 Posts
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That guy that won the tournament was a hustler. Big fat ugly guy with shades.
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Not a huge trap, but a trap... I mean all gambling is really. I never play poker to actually gain money, thats just a perk. If I'm part of a friendly game, I consider that 10-20 bucks money paid for entertainment. Not seeing the 50 bucks as potential income is a great way to make the game fun, instead of stressful.
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poker is free money, get better at the game and you'll win
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it may or may not be a money trap, but it sure is a time trap. you'll lose so many hours to this game if you get addicted (to the game itself or just gambling in general)
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It was kinda like that in the beginning for me as well.. However i really started to analyze the hands that i lost and i actually found out that most of the suckouts i had was because i:
1) Didn't bet enough. (slowplayed alot because i felt that was what maverick and matt damon would have done...)
2) Called a high bet in pure spite, even though i 'knew' he had hit his card on the river.
Dunno if it's like that for you - But what helped me was to think more about why i'm making the move i am. Not just anger-calling.
Also playing more tables helped me because i didn't get 'emotionally involved' at one specific table.
But maybe you're just unlucky.. it happens sometimes.
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lol if you saw the WSOP final table and how bad those guys were playing you'd know that luck> skill in tournaments.
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I know what you mean, man, I recently took a 12 buy-in downswing at nl2! Killer bad beats are possible and take a huge toll on your bankroll. Review your own play though and plug the leaks if any.
Remember that 72o will crack aces almost 12% of the time so don't think they are unbeatable. Aces are good to shove preflop, postflop they are a mere one pair hand that needs to be treated as such otherwise you will win the small pots and lose the big ones.
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On November 11 2009 17:20 Chill wrote:
I don't know what to tell you. Obviously if you make the right moves more often than your opponent you are going to win money. How is this a question?
Because you can make the right moves and still lose.
On November 11 2009 17:38 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 17:03 avilo wrote:
I do not see how it is possible to profit from poker if you are making the "right decisions" but end up losing your backroll for making them.
It does not sound like you're making the right decisions then. You shouldn't ever lose your br. And even if you have downswings, that happens. But in the long run you're winning more if you're playing better, and i mean LONG run. Downswings can last a long time.
well, the entire time I have been playing poker has been a downswing =/
"in the long run" is nice for someone that has the money to throw around.
I do not see how it is possible to profit when in such a "downswing," like, for example, you have AA preflop, you are re-raised 3x big blinds, you re-raise, and they re-raise too...they prob have kings right? well, this if you end up losing somehow with AA like this having ridiculous advantage, or other types of hands...wtf you supposed to do?
it is just a killer to have the best hand, protect the hand, and the guy stays in on a random gutshot with like 10% chance or whatever of hitting on the river and he hits...or like how the fuck are you supposed to play fuckers that re-raise pre-flop with random shit like 7/5, 4/6, hell, even 9/10, j/10, they stay in the hand, you have kings/queens or overpair etc. you get your money in, and they just happen to hit...like god, it is so frustrating.
!!! then it snowballs, because I am not going to play while I am frustrated either...that will not help, but then I end up not playing hands at all so that doesn't work =/
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i don't have the time to really explain in depth, but here are some quickfire thoughts:
o you are losing because you are just as bad as the "fish" you berate
o while playing better cards than your opponent (tighter than them) is in itself an edge, it is not a large one, and it certainly is not a large enough edge by itself that you will profit every time in the short run (because your edge is small, your resulting variance will be high)
o if you only play premium hands and pay them off when they "suck out", then they are not really making a big mistake "drawing to random 2 pair crap", because if they hit, they will take your stack, and if they don't, then they will fold (so, you will win small pots and lose big ones)
these are some really generalized points, but the bottom line is, playing tight =/= big edge over loose players (in fact, while you are playing better cards, you also become easier to read, while it is impossible for you to know what the "fish" has because he could be chasing "anything")
tight does not mean better
it just reduces potential "short-term" variance while cutting your bottomline winrate, effectively increasing your long term variance
to just end the post with a little hypothetical that might change your poker mindset
you are playing heads up say, 110bb deep with your opponent, and he accidentally shows his AA to you (he does not realize). he then raises 3xbb. what is the correct play?
your first instinct may be fold, but the correct answer is to call with 100% of your hands... and then play perfectly postflop (in otherwords, hit 2p or better, bluff your stack if it comes 4-flush and he doesn't have that As obviously)
do you understand?
g2g badminton
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If people calls you with anything then the solution is quite simple. You are in heaven. Deposit enough so you can play 6-8 tables and start playing your cards more then the opponents.
only play QQ,KK, AA and play them aggressively. You you feel you get to few hands to play then open up a table or two more.
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On November 11 2009 19:08 exalted wrote:
i don't have the time to really explain in depth, but here are some quickfire thoughts:
o you are losing because you are just as bad as the "fish" you berate
o while playing better cards than your opponent (tighter than them) is in itself an edge, it is not a large one, and it certainly is not a large enough edge by itself that it will allow you to simply profit in the short run (because your edge is small, so your variance is high)
o if you only play premium hands and pay them off when they "suck out", then they are not really making a big mistake "drawing to random 2 pair crap", because if they miraculously hit, they will take your stack, and if they don't, then they will just fold (so, you will win small pots and lose big ones)
these are some really generalized points, but the bottom line is, playing tight =/= big edge over loose players (in fact, while you are playing better cards, you also become easier to read, while it is impossible for you to know what the "fish" has because he could be chasing "anything")
tight does not mean better
it just reduces potential "short-term" variance while cutting your bottomline winrate, effectively increasing your long term variance
where did I berate anyone calling them fish? o.O
and I have been playing a lot of hands, winning with nothing as well, playing solid I suppose, it is just when I actually do have a hand, and they do (or even if they don't...), and end up in those situations, I have been losing them...
there have been times i have been aggressive, won pots that I probably should not have, other times have folded hands when needed, even a/k routine folds when nothing hits and they obviously did.
just dunno thx for the advice though
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On November 11 2009 19:09 Patriot.dlk wrote:
If people calls you with anything then the solution is quite simple. You are in heaven. Deposit enough so you can play 6-8 tables and start playing your cards more then the opponents.
only play QQ,KK, AA and play them aggressively. You you feel you get to few hands to play then open up a table or two more.
that's what I am saying man, I have been in those "heaven" spots, and have had horrible luck with them not just a few times, but over and over, and it is gettinggggg frussstrrattttinnggggg
perhaps this is a vent blog, so all the advice on how to handle this is appreciated. I may try to adjust a bit and play slightly more conservative.
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Holy shit, the reason poker is profitable is because luck is involved. If this game was 100% skill, you couldn't make money unless you were one of the best in the world.
If you don't like the game, don't play it.
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I think it might not be for you.
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On November 11 2009 17:35 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 17:12 Mortality wrote:
Poker is a zero sum game. Every dollar somebody earns is a dollar somebody else loses.
That's not true, if you play with someone and the money just goes back and forth between you two, you both lose, and the poker company wins (via rake) "Is Poker just a trap or what? There surely are not many "fish" online"... Yes, there are that many fish online. I know your pain man, someone going all in with like 7,4 offsuite preflop and beating your aces hurts. But after all you WANT them to do that. dont forget that he did have a certain percentage to win with that hand. You want him to take that risk, because 9/10 you win all of his money. 1/10 times he does, that's life, deal with it.Just keep playing, if you really didnt do any mistakes, got sucked out on really badly, then it's not your fault, youre just unlucky for a moment. But if losing the money hurts too much, go down to lower stakes again. Thinking "I'll go to higher stakes, because there the people are not as retarded and dont call with nothing and suck out" is NOT the right way to think. You want people to be stupid and to call you with stupid shit, just adapt your game and play tighter, they will only suck out on you a certain percentage of the time, as long as you play long enough.
anyone trying to make it with online poker should take what this man says and keep it close to your heart.
On November 11 2009 19:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I think it might not be for you.
roflyes
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Only play poker if:
- you don't really need money
- you have a lot of time
- you enjoy it
- you have basic probabilities knowledge
- you aren't prone to tilt
- you have a lot of patience.
Also worship variance because she can be a real bitch. But that's part of the game.
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Haha yeah i agree this years main event was just silly.
btw OP it sounds like poker REALLY isn't for you.
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On November 11 2009 17:03 avilo wrote:
started at 1c/2c tables
Ok, good way to start.
as well as 2/5 cent tables
1st mistake
and 5/10 tables
2nd mistake
but I did horrible at those when I started - it seemed like people would call with anything, and I would always get sucked out on no matter what I was holding
uhmmmmmm, when people call with anything, it means they suck. If you can't beat the suckers, guess who's the sucker.
So one of my friends that has made a lot from poker convinced me to deposit a bit and start to play more seriously, and I went ahead and started on 10/25 c tables
He gave you a good advice, to start playing more seriously if you're gonna play at all.
Yet you interperted playing seriously as MOVING UP STAKES. FAIL #1.
*huge whine*
Man up and ask yourself if you like to play this game. If you do, play properly, beat NL2 first and then move up.
I had a similar (idiotic) thought process when I started playing. "These guys suck, if I move up, I will do better." Well, wrong. If you know they suck, but you don't know how to exploit it, and you move up, you just missed a huge opportunity to learn, and you're eventually gonna have to patch that hole in your knowledge, it's just gonna be much more expensive at a higher level.
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I see this all the time, truth is you probably didn't even run that bad, you just lost chances to make money a million other ways, and then paid off ridiculously in several spots.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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On November 11 2009 17:12 Mortality wrote:
Poker is a zero sum game. Every dollar somebody earns is a dollar somebody else loses. Unless you're really good at playing the odds, don't play for any significant amount of cash, because somebody who's better will just take your money.
Edit: I just noticed that whenever you write poker in a comment, it automatically creates a hotlink to liquidpoker. LOL
It took you 2500 posts to notice that?
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poker is a game of variance (bad players call this luck)
you'll need to play a lot of hands for the odds to even out
also, make sure you have a rakeback account if you are serious about playing
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yes, obviously 10/25 c did not work out well =/ which is why I went back down to NL2
On November 11 2009 23:05 thedeadhaji wrote:
you are just bad
Running extremely bad yes. Bad otherwise...not so much.
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On November 12 2009 05:46 avilo wrote:yes, obviously 10/25 c did not work out well =/ which is why I went back down to NL2 Running extremely bad yes. Bad otherwise...not so much.
Do you know what br management means ?
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On November 11 2009 19:59 Boblion wrote:
Only play poker if:
- you don't really need money
- you have a lot of time
- you enjoy it
- you have basic probabilities knowledge
- you aren't prone to tilt
- you have a lot of patience.
Also worship variance because she can be a real bitch. But that's part of the game.
- you don't let your ego get in the way of objective analysis
Poker will always be profitable for good players because everyone thinks they're good.
We're also subject to selection bias. 7-5 has 37% preflop equity against AK, and you probably remember the one time you got stacked by it and forget the two times where your opponent folded before show down. As exalted said, playing better cards than your opponents is only an edge, not a guarantee of winning in the short term.
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On November 11 2009 17:20 Chill wrote:
I don't know what to tell you. Obviously if you make the right moves more often than your opponent you are going to win money. How is this a question?
Yea but the "right" moves aren't completely skill-based. Poker isn't that linear and there's a considerable amount of luck too
I'd say only 10-20 % of poker players are successful in the long run. Then again, hard work, patience and dedication will of course get you closer to those percentages, compared with gambling away your paycheck in an hour each month.
The correlation between being good at SC and Poker exists because semi-good/good SC players apparently have the patience and dedication to be good at other games too. Both games are also easy to learn but take a lifetime to master
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United States4796 Posts
It's as much a trap as any other game that offers you a chance to win but a large chance to lose.
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Poker is not just a game of luck. If you believe it is play Joe Cada, (I know I have, he's my boss's neighbor) and watch how bad he kicks your ass.
Seriously it's a name where numbers are a big deal, if your bad with math Poker is very hard. Or if you just don't know any strategy. It's a game that requires a very deep strategy.
Start with free tourny's on an online poker and when you are winning those go to real money.
I know my lifetime earnings on poker is about 4-5k and I barely ever play.
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poker's like investing, it's gambling for those who don't know what they're doing and free money for those who do
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I've been having the urge to play poker since I noticed the TSL sponsor too. I started playing at pokerstars but just using play money. So far I'm falling into the same traps as the OP except I know I suck at poker. I'm just trying to learn. So thanks for the tips posted so far in this blog's replies.
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I think it's a trap in the sense that a lot of young people who like competitive games like starcraft get sucked into it, thinking that they can make a lot of money really quickly. And they waste hours upon hours playing on low stakes, not really getting anywhere, because it just takes a long time to get good. For all the hours that people put into poker, they could just be working a regular job instead, and usually make more money.
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United States43362 Posts
On November 11 2009 20:56 niteReloaded wrote:Ok, good way to start. 1st mistake 2nd mistake Show nested quote +but I did horrible at those when I started - it seemed like people would call with anything, and I would always get sucked out on no matter what I was holding uhmmmmmm, when people call with anything, it means they suck. If you can't beat the suckers, guess who's the sucker. Show nested quote +
So one of my friends that has made a lot from poker convinced me to deposit a bit and start to play more seriously, and I went ahead and started on 10/25 c tables
He gave you a good advice, to start playing more seriously if you're gonna play at all. Yet you interperted playing seriously as MOVING UP STAKES. FAIL #1. Man up and ask yourself if you like to play this game. If you do, play properly, beat NL2 first and then move up. I had a similar (idiotic) thought process when I started playing. "These guys suck, if I move up, I will do better." Well, wrong. If you know they suck, but you don't know how to exploit it, and you move up, you just missed a huge opportunity to learn, and you're eventually gonna have to patch that hole in your knowledge, it's just gonna be much more expensive at a higher level.
This. You made a series of huge mistakes which if you'd read the basic articles on liquidpoker you could have avoided.
To give a bw example, you went on icc and tried doing your standard build from vods and liquipedia at D rank but the opponents who didn't know how to play did retarded 1 hat lurk builds and dt rushes and managed to beat you because you're a newb who doesn't know how to react. So to get back into your comfort zone and make the game look more like the vod you're copying you moved up to B rank and tried your luck there. Only you're still a D- newb. And you're playing for $.
Not so smart.
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I can never play poker for money, Im just too impatient to make the right calls. Its not my game for that reason. Patience is huge in this game and remaining calm even after you lose when 9/10 you would win any particular hand. Yes people make retarded calls in lower stakes but like was said before you want them to do that because unless they have a huge roll of luck you will benefit. Moving up stakes will just mean you run into better players and will lose money.
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poker takes a lot of skill, and you definately won't get better by only playing AA / AK/ KK
unless you are playing against really bad people lol
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I agree and i think in online poker u cannot make money but this don't apply in real life. At online there are no tells and if u are at least decent at playing odds, winning from professional players in the short run is not impossible. Its the computer that decides who wins but they surely have a system to balance out the luck. I reckon most of the income earned by the pros are prize money from tournaments. U have much bigger chance to beat them in online table but definintely not in real life tournament, i think that explains why the same pros always advance into the final rounds.
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United States43362 Posts
On November 13 2009 06:38 Baddieko wrote:
I agree and i think in online poker u cannot make money but this don't apply in real life. At online there are no tells and if u are at least decent at playing odds, winning from professional players in the short run is not impossible. Its the computer that decides who wins but they surely have a system to balance out the luck. I reckon most of the income earned by the pros are prize money from tournaments. U have much bigger chance to beat them in online table but definintely not in real life tournament, i think that explains why the same pros always advance into the final rounds.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Everything you wrote displays your ignorance.
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One of my co-workers plays 5-6 poker tables at once for many hours a day and makes bomb cash.
If nothing else he always ends up paying for his lunch/dinner for that day.
I really want to get into poker 
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Jesus christ this thread is full of misinformation.
Kudos to the LPers like kwark who help maintain sanity in this thread.
On November 12 2009 05:46 avilo wrote:yes, obviously 10/25 c did not work out well =/ which is why I went back down to NL2 Running extremely bad yes. Bad otherwise...not so much.
While I like to exaggerate a lot, after reading through all your posts in this thread I can honestly say that you might actually be one of the worst players I've ever had to read about. You are really, really bad at this game and it is entirely apparent given the things you have written. For what it's worth, Haji pretty much never plays poker and he's still light years ahead of you in terms of comprehension of poker theory. I don't wish to come off as mean (too late for that I know), but the sooner you realize this the better.
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On November 11 2009 19:00 avilo wrote:
Because you can make the right moves and still lose.
But if you make the correct decisions then you will win more often than you lose, right?
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I think your problem is just bad bankroll management. Don't invest more than 5% of your total money in one table and if you make a ton of money a table, leave. There's a really good video on full tilt poker on it, but I'm not sure if I can link it.
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On November 12 2009 15:39 KwarK wrote:
To give a bw example, you went on icc and tried doing your standard build from vods and liquipedia at D rank but the opponents who didn't know how to play did retarded 1 hat lurk builds and dt rushes and managed to beat you because you're a newb who doesn't know how to react. So to get back into your comfort zone and make the game look more like the vod you're copying you moved up to B rank and tried your luck there. Only you're still a D- newb. And you're playing for $.
Not so smart.
This is actually a pretty sic good example. It's all about timing and execution, not just knowing "what" to do, but in what situations and vs who to do it against. It's like pickup, everyone KNOWS you're supposed to "be yourself and confident", but if you are just a random shitbag then that advice won't take you anywhere will it.
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I went to FTP and put $10 and lost it! I'm back to freerolls in Cake Poker ^_^ Also WSOP 09 was entertaining hehe, wish XXXX had won though!!! I think once I start consistently doing well in freerolls I might move up to real money again :O
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honestly, just open 6 tables on 1c/2c and only play premium hands.
you cant lose money.
i deposited $20 and went up to $40 in a few weekends -- now i'm back at $31 because I get so curious at showdowns =p
it's fun, and your just playing at those levels so you can move up to the next ones and feel comfortable.
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admiral ackbar says it could be.
For people who don't suck at games it isn't a trap.
Op, running bad in poker is a test of one of the skills you need to beat the game. If you whine about running bad all the time then the game has you beat and you need to learn to play.
If you get beaten by runner runner flush when you flop top set and then you whine about it, then you need to learn to play.
Hope this helps.
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On November 13 2009 06:38 Baddieko wrote:
I agree and i think in online poker u cannot make money but this don't apply in real life. At online there are no tells and if u are at least decent at playing odds, winning from professional players in the short run is not impossible. Its the computer that decides who wins but they surely have a system to balance out the luck. I reckon most of the income earned by the pros are prize money from tournaments. U have much bigger chance to beat them in online table but definintely not in real life tournament, i think that explains why the same pros always advance into the final rounds.
My brain just imploded. I bet your parents said you were -EV as soon as you learned to talk
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EPT
