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rant on pvp [bw thoughts]

Blogs > Xeris
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Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-11 00:38:32
November 11 2009 00:36 GMT
#1
Check my previous blog here about my thoughts (this was 2 weeks ago or something):
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=104545 ...

interesting to see the changes (I.E, I wasn't confident in my PvT then but now I'm feeling like a superstud)

So as people may or may not have noticed from my recent blogs - I've gotten pretty active over the last 1.5 months, usually during the summers I spend time trying to improve, but my activity came a little late this time. Anyways, so I"ve been pretty active of late and playing lots of ICCUP and whatnot.

I definitely had a breakthrough with PvT. Last summer I was a really strong PvT player (when I was very active)... I was able to take games off really strong terrans like AeriALs and SchiSm. But sometime in 2009, the Terran style changed and when I started playing again, I was terrible at PvT. My old builds weren't working anymore and I was losing to terrans at C- and such.

I can finally say though that I've made a nice breakthrough in PvT, I feel as if I have a really firm grasp on how Terrans play it now and my builds are pretty capable of beating B- players. Playing at the LAN last weekend was very nice, as well as being a few C+ terrans on ICCUP who had beaten me a few weeks before, revenge is sweet.

PvZ for some reason I have always felt very comfortable with. I have a good sense of timing, my builds are generally solid, although I do have a few glaring weaknesses in that matchup, it's mostly due to actual mechanics and execution rather than a lack of understanding of the matchup.

PvP is another story altogether, and I really feel as if the only thing keeping me away from B- right now is that I'm losing almost every PvP I play (check my ~35% winrate in PvP). While I feel as if I have a very good conceptual/theoretic knowledge of PvT and PvZ, I feel like a lost child when it comes to PvP.

I watch some of my PvP reps that I lose and I wonder "how the fuck did he get more units than me, etc". It's a really annoying position to be in. I'm able to beat C+ zergs and C+ terrans about 50-60% of the time, but I'm losing to almost every Protoss who's solid C rank.

Possible thoughts why:

- Again, my understanding of probe production really hurts me. I never know when I'm supposed to stop probes, etc. I think my gateway timing is bad, my expand timing sucks, and although I've stopped losing to DT's like a retard (as I used to do last month), I'm just getting overpowered lately (due to the problems I mentioned earlier).

- I also think my build orders may not be timed well, I studied this one build from a VOD of BeSt recently however it's only applicable in general situations, so I feel like I need to study a couple general builds and really work them through in single player or something.

- This leads me to a general theory of mirror matchups and why they're so hard (possibly you've heard me talk about it on my stream). I think that mirror matchups really test the skill of a player. They are incredibly precise, much moreso than in any other matchup. For example, cutting a few probes and having slightly better pylon timing can allow you to get 5-6 extra fighting units in the early/mid-game that will be crucial in a battle. Unit positioning on attacks is also much more important in mirror matchups (while they're important generally, I feel like there is a certain element of 1a2a3a in PvT for example, and in PvZ you really need to focus on just not losing temps / obs and the rest of your units you don't need to worry that much about)... in PvP however, your unit positioning is much more critical.

- Build orders are also much more important in mirror matchups... 14 core vs someone who goes a zealot or two puts you at a disadvantage. Going 14 core only to scout your opponent going 2 gate zeals is basically gg. In other matchups it's not that bad with a few exceptions (like hardcore 2fac rush vs 1 goon expand)... and build order losses are almost as annoying as losing to a lame cheese or allin.

Anyways, there's also a much bigger luck factor. It is POSSIBLE for someone to be "good" at a mirror matchup due to luck, however those who are consistently better at mirror matchups I believe are far superior than those who aren't. For example, I may be able to reach B- playing solely PvT and PvZ, but my PvP is only about C rank (I'd probably maintain C with like 50% winrate if I exclusively played PvP), so I can't really consider myself much higher than C rank skill.

Just in general, I think the actual skill of a player is most probably 1 rank below the rank you actually achieve. Reason being, I think if you play a LOT of games you'll get a fairly decent rank just due to the fact that trading wins/losses will eventually rank you up (up to ~B level or whatever). So the fact that I'm C+ right now indicates to me that I'm a solid C player. Once I get B- I'll feel comfortable calling myself C+, etc.

Anyway that's my mini PvP rant and some random Starcraft thoughts.

*****
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9106 Posts
November 11 2009 00:43 GMT
#2
That's an interesting situation. I am the same way with my PvZ I feel, I know what to do, it's mainly about execution. I'm the opposite though in that I get PvP pretty well, but my PvT has always been my weakest MU.

You gonna try to mass ladder for TSL?
Psyonic_Reaver
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4341 Posts
November 11 2009 00:46 GMT
#3
I have the same thoughts on PvP. You REALLY need to be spot on with your multitasking in getting pylons down on time, scouting, and reacting perfectly to what your opponent is doing. Any tiny mistake you make early game is like a snowball rolling downhill that turns into a huge ball of ice by mid game.

You forgot a pylon at 33? Well now you're behind 3 Dragoons or your Reaver isn't getting out on time and if the other guy didn't forget he'll get ahead. Positioning is another thing that really matters in PvP. If you have your Goons in a good semi circle outside the enemy P base and he just a-moves in, he'll lose 3-4 goons before actually getting them all to fire effectively.
So wait? I'm bad? =(
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
November 11 2009 00:49 GMT
#4
nice rant, and i've watched you pvp on the streams and seemed like you have probles with unit positions cause you have good macro and micro going for you but just bad positioning leading to bad results . and i agree with you about the mus and positions pvz its more important for zerg to surround a toss, toss just needs to stay in a ball. pvt is harder, timing for your units needs to be right or goons can block zealots ect ect and bam waisted army.

pvp with goon battles and positioning is so scary, like on destination, you corss the bridge to late and your fucked, you let him cross his entire army then you lost the advatage.

Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
November 11 2009 00:55 GMT
#5
On November 11 2009 09:43 Jonoman92 wrote:
That's an interesting situation. I am the same way with my PvZ I feel, I know what to do, it's mainly about execution. I'm the opposite though in that I get PvP pretty well, but my PvT has always been my weakest MU.

You gonna try to mass ladder for TSL?


No. I've never played any of these ladder events except for the SC2GG Starleague, in which I was up in the qualifiers until they announced the prize and good people started playing so I just stopped. I've always thought it was a waste of time to be honest... why spend time mass gaming for something I have 0% chance to qualify for?

No... I'm training because I want to help my team win CSL and have one nice run at some LAN events. Because starting in about February 2010 I'll probably stop playing because I need to start hardcore studying for the LSAT + GRE (since I'm applying for dual-degree masters programs). So pretty much, for about 6-7 months my gaming time is done... this is kinda my last hurrah, and I want to see what I can do in the next 2 months in terms of improvement.
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
November 11 2009 00:58 GMT
#6
I don't know about you, but I think PvP is probably the most imbalanced MU in the game, as on right now.
GoShox
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States1843 Posts
November 11 2009 00:58 GMT
#7
I feel like I'm in the same exact spot as you with PvP.

I used to dread playing PvT, but now it's easily my best matchup and I love playing it, and recently I've beaten some really good players. However, PvP just seems impossible sometimes.. the timing to add Gateways seems really weird, as well as taking expansion. Sometimes I'm like "sweet my expansion is ahead!" then I get beat by a well-micro'ed Goon/Reaver attack. Then sometimes I'll decide to do a 3 Gate Goon and be aggressive, and I see he has taken his expansion and is able to hold it off. So confusing

And don't even get me started on losing to 4-Gate Goon...
Psyonic_Reaver
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4341 Posts
November 11 2009 01:02 GMT
#8
Yeah. I agree GoShox. Fuck 4 gate goon.
So wait? I'm bad? =(
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
November 11 2009 01:05 GMT
#9
heh yeahhhh when i was watching the stream of duke's match, i was disagreeing with your pvp commentary every 20 seconds :D
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
s.a.y
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Croatia3840 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-11 01:08:21
November 11 2009 01:06 GMT
#10
i don't know if i can help, but i learned a lot from this fpvod



It's nony playing PvP on Gaia, talking about him playing against a standard build, starting with 1 zealot for defensive purposes. You can tell when he expands and when he cuts probes.

EDIT: lol at the post above
I am not good with quotes
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-11 01:11:02
November 11 2009 01:10 GMT
#11
On November 11 2009 10:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
heh yeahhhh when i was watching the stream of duke's match, i was disagreeing with your pvp commentary every 20 seconds :D

lol yeah same here, even though it was my own match. for example, you saying that i should just stay on one gate while he goes two gate is a horrible idea, especially on maps like shades. you get contained and then you are completely fucked. also cutting units (after losing probes) to add more gates is usually not good in pvp either, on maps where you need center control for expos. (watched the on-demand, of course )

regardless duran i am willing to help you work on your game whenever i have time. feel free to ask me questions, as i feel it's one of my stronger matchups. gogo c+/b-!
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 11 2009 01:16 GMT
#12
this reminds me that for my 10k post i am gonna write an extensive PvP guide with fpvods and all that. i feel like it's a matchup a lot of protoss players struggle with, and there's not enough threads about it
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
November 11 2009 01:34 GMT
#13
On November 11 2009 10:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
heh yeahhhh when i was watching the stream of duke's match, i was disagreeing with your pvp commentary every 20 seconds :D


ya =[

as I said, my pvp is pretty bad : (
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
November 11 2009 01:43 GMT
#14
pvp is a very odd matchup. sometimes, i get my third way earlier than my opponent, and like 5-10 mins later, he pushes out and pwns me. turns out maxing out on 2 base, is way faster than maxing out on 3 base, and ur third should only be taken if u have a huge advantage. in my experience anyway..
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
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