On November 05 2009 02:38 fanatacist wrote: I don't think they will never achieve the status of being commonly used as lead actors in movies that are not geared towards martial arts or action. I just think that simply fielding more Asian Actors, disregarding the social climate, is not the solution. I also think that it will be a while before American-born Asian actors with no martial arts background can be top-10 grossing actors in America. I don't believe in "paying dues" - I think the notion of having to fulfill a racial stereotype or honoring the history of your background in cinema before being considered an established actor is stupid. I'm Russian, don't you think I'm tired of seeing the stereotypical Russian actor playing a stereotypical Russian role in a movie (gangster with an ugly face and leather jacket, speaking broken English)? Or when American actors try to portray Russians, which puts a whole new level of stereotyping into the mix? I almost cried whenever I heard the kid in Star Trek talk, his accent was the kind of demeaning accent that people take when trying to imitate Russian immigrants, I'm sure you can relate. Him being 17 and a math/physics genius is just one example of the subliminal stereotyping. It's just as bad as 'yellowface' is to you, except in some ways it is better (not actually having to put on special make up to look like the the target character), and in some ways it is worse (most Americans don't even realize that they are being spoon-fed lies and racism BECAUSE Russians are Caucasians and can easily be played by a white actor to a satisfactory level for the audience).
Not that I disagree with your points at all, and this is slightly off-topic I guess, but the kid from Star Trek is actually a Russian immigrant, granted he apparently came to America around 6 months old (source: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0947338/bio ). Apparently you feel that he portrayed Russians poorly (and I personally have no idea, so I'm not disagreeing with you), so I'm just curious what you believe the cause of that to be? Personally I would think someone of Russian descent, especially someone with parents such as his, would be at least somewhat in touch with Russian culture and heritage and to have a somewhat accurate idea of how to sound Russian. So do you think that the problem may have been with his upbringing as a result of him being in America (thus causing him to lose many of his Russian traits), or do you think that the problem came from Hollywood's end, and that maybe they (or maybe even he himself) put pressure on the actor to portray what you feel to be an inaccurate stereotype?
This is an honest question, I'm not trying to disagree or put you into a difficult position here. I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread and I think that you have some interesting points, so I was just curious what you thought about this particular subject if you don't mind sharing.
Yes, looking at his name I knew he was Russian or at least born to Russian parents. It was clear from his accent that it was forced, so I knew he wasn't raised in Russia. Even being knowledgeable in Russian culture or being of that descent does not mean your Russian is actually that pervasive that it affects your English speech. What I am trying to say is that he TRIED to portray a Russian accent when it was completely unnecessary in absolute terms. It was clearly added for comedic value, making the age question that came up later more funny than if he was John Doe from America (because he is a Russian immigrant, he must therefore have gone through a rigorous physics educational program in the Motherland at a young age, right?). I think the problem therefore lies in both Hollywood and this actor in particular and his clearly forced play. Not that it's his fault - he got chosen for a role due to his last name and paper stats (born in Russia, raised by Russians), and he had to fill the role that Hollywood scripted him. The role itself, due to the aforementioned question and unnecessarily heavy accent, is demeaning in a way, even though he is lauded for his intelligence. The actor forcing a Russian accent when he himself clearly does not have one is a more direct factor, but like I said really isn't his fault. This also ties in with the fact that he was chosen for a Russian role because he has a Russian last name and some minor biographical history, like how Asian actors are forced into Asian kung fu roles with Asian stereotypes even if they are American-born.
I don't think I'm THAT sensitive lol. This is just a conversation, and you asked an interesting question that wasn't accusatory or inflammatory, you're not stepping any toes haha. No need to approach with a precautionary message - I only took it out a bit on KissBlade because I wanted to point out that he was being accusatory in his tone, and that was no longer necessary because he made it clear he wanted an open and serious discussion (although I understand his continuing of the tone that we both set with our first responses to each other).
EDIT: Just want to expound on the fact that just because he has Russian parents, it doesn't mean that he can accurately represent a Russian accent - he might be able to pull off a TYPICAL Russian accent that Americans want to hear better than non-Eastern European actors, but that never does the original variation on the dialect any justice. When my parents talk, they have quirks that are not part of a typical Russian accent, such as the one he portrayed - he basically said English phrases in a funny voice, whereas most Russians who are actual immigrants not only have accents but also differences in phrase structure, conjugation, and word choice. For example, the word "accurate" in Russian is closest to the word "akuratno," which actually means "careful." Mistakes like that in conversation are what makes Russian immigrants immigrants, and not just people speaking with a funny voice. Of course there are more general ones that he could have employed in his speech, but he didn't - the script was written by some American writer, hoping to extract a few laughs at the expense of a stereotype. He wrote it in perfect English, and then had some kid read it with a forced accent. Therefore it would be impossible to tell if this kid actually spoke any Russian or not, because for example I lack an accent (almost) in both English and Russian. However my forced accent will never be as good as my parents' real one, and it's not because I am a terrible actor or because I am not good at imitating at least generally what they sound like - it's because of the lingual tendencies that I'd never have the presence of mind to include in conversation. This is all regardless of the fact that I still find the stereotyping somewhat offensive.
On November 05 2009 01:25 underscore wrote: Unlike blacks asians are not good at acting. The perfect choice would be a black actor but the make-up takes too long and that's why they take a white guy.
lol
On November 05 2009 02:20 Hawk wrote:
Those eyes sure don't look too asian?
Kyo Kusanagi from King of Fighters is obviously supposed to be Japanese though. His last name is fucking Kusanagi for god's sake.
And the artists obviously borrowed features from caucasians in their rendition of the dude?
The thing is, I generally find that in Japanese manga style art, there are little to no differences in how Caucasians and Asians are drawn when it comes to facial structure. Much of the time, the differences are only really portrayed in hair colour or facial hair or something like that. Due to this I really can't say if the artists borrowed Caucasian features when drawing their characters. It's not like visual arts always strive to be realistic.
I didn't say they strive to be realistic. But it's completely obvious that facial features are borrowed from other races, seeing as you don't see any asians wide and bright eyed.
See, as far as anime and manga go, I don't necessarily think the writers/drawers exactly try to mimic the western cultures. I've been trying to search on sources confirming/denying this theory, but there wasn't much I found. Thus, unless someone can provide a legit source, I'm against the belief that asians try to mimic caucasians, although it's not impossible and note, I say "mimic" as in completely center the theme around them.
The main reason I believe otherwise is because, sure there are many blonde haired, blue eyed depictions of characters in japanese anime and manga, but the eyes aren't in any one particular shape. You do have the overly huge shapes that look like bells, but you also do have the slantedness pop up pretty often. In addition, you have besides the normal hair colors, pink, blue, gray, white, orange, and so many other weird discrepencies like extremely childish looking (lolicon) characters.
I do think asians borrow much from the western culture, but not necessarily center it around them. Rather, they take ideas from all over and just make an explosion of varieties showing in many different instances, not just the one from a quote within this quote with kusanagi or w/e. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong either, Hawk about the fact that there are borrowed features from Caucasian evident in the blond hair/blue eyed combo that comes up often.
Just wanted to make this huge post with my 2cent analysis because I have a self-righteous indignation about having my voice heard
Nah, I agree, it's like a big mix of everything. It's not totally based on caucasians, but stuff is borrowed to show variety. I saw that pop up on a couple anime forums, but it was a bunch of nobodies talking, so take it as you will. But logically, it's easy to reason that they're emulating some stuff on other people.
On November 05 2009 01:25 underscore wrote: Unlike blacks asians are not good at acting. The perfect choice would be a black actor but the make-up takes too long and that's why they take a white guy.
lol
On November 05 2009 02:20 Hawk wrote:
Those eyes sure don't look too asian?
Kyo Kusanagi from King of Fighters is obviously supposed to be Japanese though. His last name is fucking Kusanagi for god's sake.
And the artists obviously borrowed features from caucasians in their rendition of the dude?
The thing is, I generally find that in Japanese manga style art, there are little to no differences in how Caucasians and Asians are drawn when it comes to facial structure. Much of the time, the differences are only really portrayed in hair colour or facial hair or something like that. Due to this I really can't say if the artists borrowed Caucasian features when drawing their characters. It's not like visual arts always strive to be realistic.
I didn't say they strive to be realistic. But it's completely obvious that facial features are borrowed from other races, seeing as you don't see any asians wide and bright eyed.
I don't see any Caucasians with sparkly eyes that cover a quarter of their face. I don't find it obvious at all because the extent of how sharp the shape of Asians really aren't as close as how many people exaggerate, and one of my ex girlfriends had really big eyes naturally. There are differences, but it's not as big as you think. The facial features are not "obviously" borrowed from other races, and I still maintain that I don't think the correlation is as big as you claim despite that the Japanese have strived to be a part of the West when with Asians, and at the same time try to push forward their Eastern characteristics when with the Westerners for a very long time.
On November 05 2009 01:25 underscore wrote: Unlike blacks asians are not good at acting. The perfect choice would be a black actor but the make-up takes too long and that's why they take a white guy.
lol
On November 05 2009 02:20 Hawk wrote:
Those eyes sure don't look too asian?
Kyo Kusanagi from King of Fighters is obviously supposed to be Japanese though. His last name is fucking Kusanagi for god's sake.
And the artists obviously borrowed features from caucasians in their rendition of the dude?
The thing is, I generally find that in Japanese manga style art, there are little to no differences in how Caucasians and Asians are drawn when it comes to facial structure. Much of the time, the differences are only really portrayed in hair colour or facial hair or something like that. Due to this I really can't say if the artists borrowed Caucasian features when drawing their characters. It's not like visual arts always strive to be realistic.
I didn't say they strive to be realistic. But it's completely obvious that facial features are borrowed from other races, seeing as you don't see any asians wide and bright eyed.
I don't see any Caucasians with sparkly eyes that cover a quarter of their face.
I agree. I totally hated that white kid in the Jet Li/Jackie Chan movie Forbidden Kingdom. I mean, this movie had two of the most popular chinese actors and yet they take a backseat to this lil white kid. The movie is supposed to take place in mythical ancient China, wtf's a white kid doing in ancient china??
If anything, I say the blame resides in the asian movie business people. I'm guessing the chinese guys want to sell to the US/international market so they cast caucasian people.
The "not white enough" is not only Korea, it's the entire fuckin Asia, and I have experience of it. The whiter you look the richer (beauty, educated...) you seem. Dark skin is related to poor sort of, that's why everybody there do skin whitening not mentioning south east Asia.
White is the colour which produces the greatest transcedental impression on my mind. Anything can be made dark by being soiled in nature. But to be white, and to be kept white, requires a strict cleanness which places the object in self-sufficient solitude above nature. The impressions evoked by whiteness- purity, delicacy, modesty, and a sensuous vulnerability - are not arbitrary. Because whiteness makes our feelings gentle, and our sensations enjoyable, it ought be embraced by civilized people.
it's only slightly relevant but this was a really great moltke post
First off, I'd like to thank the serious responses to this thread regardless of whether or not I agree with them I do appreciate them for thought value.
On November 05 2009 02:38 fanatacist wrote:
~~~
I'd also like to think we probably got off to a bad start so let me clear off that any accusation of you being a racist was wrong of me and I apologize for them in tone and meaning. For obvious reasons, I've felt myself attacked on multiple fronts for my post so my temper overrode my judgment. Unfortunately I have to be brief as I arrived home at midnight and have work tomorrow. =(
Regarding African Americans allowed main roles, I do feel it's part because they were particularly more active (though occasionally to the side of whining) in their own political battles that brought them to where they were. After all, as you said, it took the better part of a century to get African Americans to where they are socially in society. While my own post here not do much on it's own, it's still one more voice than not.
In response to your second paragraph, I agree with you on point. However, the difference is, you believe that such a thing will naturally occur where I believe it won't happen until something pushes it to happen. I also sympathize with you because most of my friends are actually predominantly Russian (lol, actually to the point where I would've been very much favorable deposed towards you if I knew you were Russian) and know all about the "oh you just get drunk and violent all the time, etc etc". I should also point out that the reason I am especially upset is for the same reason you are, in that most Americans simply think these things are acceptable, just like "oh Asian guys can't get any because they're all quiet, insecure nerds, etc etc."
Will respond to more posts when I can borrow time at work =\.
The situation is actually pretty simple in my perspective.
Hollywood has discriminated against Asians over the years. The American perspective is skewed to view Asian actors as only being a "Charlie Chan" or "Fu Man Chu" character. Because of the negative perception, American audiences react poorly to an Asian male lead character. Therefore, Hollywood refuses to risk casting an Asian male lead. That is how the cycle continues. Never under estimate the power of Hollywood representation, during our childhood we all build an image of subjects/objects based on how they are represented on the big screen or silver screen.
Things have nothing to do with acting ability or demographic. Everything lies with public perception of Asian-Americans, something must be done in order to reverse stereotypes and break the cycle. We have had some successful Asian male actors. An example being, Suze Hakawa. He was Japanese-american and was just as popular as Charlie Chaplin during the silent movie era.
On November 05 2009 15:19 itzme_petey wrote: Things have nothing to do with acting ability or demographic.
Public perception certainly plays in, but if you don't think that the ability of an individual actor or the demographics don't play in, I really don't know what to say.
While maybe not in movies, asian characters are becoming more prominent on TV. BSG, Dollhouse, Heroes, Flashforward, Lost, and I'm sure others have asian characters in main roles.
^Does this Jap chick have small eyes? This girl has freakin wide eyes more then most Caucasian girls.
lol she probably had surgery. double eyelid surgery is one of the most popular plastic surgeries in east asia along with increasing the height of the bridge of the nose.
say what you want, but how many american cartoons try to make their eyes look slanted/small ? There are caucasians with small eyes/single eyelid but majority has double eyelids and thats what their cartoons/comics usually portray.
sure there are some east asians with double eyelids / wider eyes, but majority/very large proportion do not. Yet in all their media they strive to portray this - including different eye/hair color which is mostly a causasian trait. (Some south asians have different eye color too though, but its not as prevalent as in caucasians).
Height of the bridge of the nose is also a indo-european, as with the wider eyes. Majority of people belonging to the indo-european ethnic group (caucasians, middle eastern, south asians) have these facial features, but mongoloids (east asians) commonly do not. However this surgery is extremely popular, and most anime/manga characters are portrayed with this feature too.
On November 05 2009 15:19 itzme_petey wrote: The situation is actually pretty simple in my perspective.
Hollywood has discriminated against Asians over the years. The American perspective is skewed to view Asian actors as only being a "Charlie Chan" or "Fu Man Chu" character. Because of the negative perception, American audiences react poorly to an Asian male lead character. Therefore, Hollywood refuses to risk casting an Asian male lead. That is how the cycle continues. Never under estimate the power of Hollywood representation, during our childhood we all build an image of subjects/objects based on how they are represented on the big screen or silver screen.
Things have nothing to do with acting ability or demographic. Everything lies with public perception of Asian-Americans, something must be done in order to reverse stereotypes and break the cycle. We have had some successful Asian male actors. An example being, Suze Hakawa. He was Japanese-american and was just as popular as Charlie Chaplin during the silent movie era.
are you going to say that the American Music Industry has discriminated Asians over the years too? Utada hikaru, BoA, WonderGirls and many other asian artists who are megastar in their home countries have utterly failed to make any impact at all in the American music scene.
But guess what, the number one song in the US for 2 weeks was by a person of south asian origin, Jay Sean.
Last year MIA who is also of south asian origin had her single #4 on the Billboard charts. Think about the number of east asians and their prevalence in media. how many east asian people do you see in commericals? they are interchangable with white people hahaha. Still these south asian artists were able to succeed. Because they made good music.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters2/kyo-coool.jpg)
