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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
On November 05 2009 00:32 fabiano wrote: do you think it is alright if they put a white guy to roleplay Ryu in a Street Fighter movie? From a purely economic viewpoint, yes, which is pretty much the only thing they care about. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On November 05 2009 01:16 Nytefish wrote: From a purely economic viewpoint, yes, which is pretty much the only thing they care about. You know, there's an awful lot of talk of "economic viewpoint" brought up as if if you put a white lead in a film, the flick will be an instant hit and putting an Asian lead = dud. However, that simply isn't true but if it makes people sleep better at night believing then not sure what to say ... | ||
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underscore
252 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On November 05 2009 01:25 underscore wrote: Unlike blacks asians are not good at acting. The perfect choice would be a black actor but the make-up takes too long and that's why they take a white guy. =) lol. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
http://game.people.com.cn/mediafile/200803/31/P200803310909118426101371.jpg DAMN IT SHANG TSUNGGGGGGGG | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On November 05 2009 01:07 KissBlade wrote: Hey fanatacist, your "if you don't like it here, go back to China" response is pretty good. I mean, I haven't heard that one before or anything. Especially not in so many words. By the way, if Asian flicks don't sell well, how'd you explain Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? Or Enter the Dragon? I'm sorry that you feel offended as an open minded Caucasian by my contentions with Hollywood. Yah, to be honest, I do have to admit, I think some of the parts are perhaps a bit too much of an inciter. Come now Hawk, you've accused people of strawman arguments before. Surely you recognize yours. And you'd have to really stretch things to think Kyo Kusanangi looks more white than Caucasian. Once again you make evident your propensity to take any insult or disagreement as a direct assault to your race, thus making me a racist. I love many Asian movies, mostly Korean ones (I have not seen many Chinese films), for example Oldboy, 3 Iron, and Tae Guk Gi. I have a large appreciation for Asian cinematography, and thus for Asian actors (the main actors in Tae Guk Gi and Oldboy played beautifully). I was excited when a Korean actor/musician (Rain) was cast in a movie (the results of this are not relevant to my point in this paragraph). Of course this doesn't make me not a racist in your eyes, because I'm playing the "I watched this Asian movie once and I liked it" card, but that's your bias against your opponents because you clearly have the absolute truth on the matter, right? Also, I'm not offended by your subject matter, but by what I know your ignorant approach is to the subject in conversation, and your manner of describing the issue as if it is a murder in your family. The "if you don't like it here, go back to China" statement would undoubtedly be a capitalist Hollywood's response to the position you have taken. We are talking about movies filmed in Hollywood for American audiences without the guiding hand of Bruce Lee there, and without the cultural influx and fascination that America had with Asian fighting movies starting in the 1950's to the 1980's, and I guess continued by actors such as Jackie Chan and Jet Li in the 1990's and to a lesser extent Tony Jaa currently (now that the other stars have gotten old). However the movies you listed, Crouching Tiger... and Enter the Dragon, were clearly done in a Asian style (or is in entirely in an Asian language... Clearly not directly marketed to American audiences in its conception). Movies that are filmed in Hollywood on or with martial arts nowadays, such as Jackie Chan's later movies, are clearly a departure from the cultural Asian orientation that was so present in titles in the third quarter of the 20th century. Hollywood movies that star Asians are just flashy Asian things and misconceptions about Asian culture packed into a Americanized movie. Although many of these movies had success (although clearly not all), it was obviously due to the cultural background of the actors - Jackie Chan and his earlier works, Jet Li's works, etc. - something that is largely missing from many Asian actors that we see in Hollywood cinema right now. The average American likes 2 kinds of Asians in movies - Jackie Chan/Jet Li/Chow Yun Fat [[for extra lols, check this out for evidence of how discriminatory America inherently is to Asian actors]]/Big Name, and those really old-school kung fu movies made in Asia (but their appreciation for this class of movies is almost demeaning in nature). What does this mean to your argument? It means that it is not enough simply to have Asian actors in movies in order to please or be accepted by an American audience: depressingly, it must predominantly be a kung fu movie for it to have an impact, it must have actors with an evident or previously known cultural background from his previous works, and and the movie has to have a strong foundation in Asian culture or the misconceptions of it that are commonly held by Americans. I honestly don't know what is the more obscene display of racism - the lack of appreciation for Asian actors in Hollywood movies, or the fact that for an Asian actor or movie to be given any status or fame it has to be due to so many pre-requisites. This however does not support your argument - you want more Asian actors, as if that somehow helps the current situation. Maybe you hope that eventually the American audience will grow into a comfortable position with Asian actors being common as lead roles in Hollywood movies. This gradual change however will take a lot of time, and thus a lot of initial dollars spent will not be returned as revenue, and thus Hollywood's interest in investing in this process is low. Let me summarize: your motives are short-sighted and are effectively a part of a myopic pipe-dream, oblivious to the perspectives of those who must spend and risk losing money providing you with the results that you desire. | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
On November 05 2009 01:21 KissBlade wrote: You know, there's an awful lot of talk of "economic viewpoint" brought up as if if you put a white lead in a film, the flick will be an instant hit and putting an Asian lead = dud. However, that simply isn't true but if it makes people sleep better at night believing then not sure what to say ... White guy is the safer option, simple. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On November 05 2009 01:46 fanatacist wrote: ~~~. Hello. Were you to post this initially, perhaps we'd have an actual discussion. However, at the moment I must actually head out and wouldn't be able to provide a fitting thoughtful response in time. I will do so when time allows. You do present good counter points but I find some of them flawed or at the very least disagreeable. Think of this until then, based upon your argument, how do you think African Americans are allowed in the main roles? Are you saying Asian Americans are simply inferior actors as a whole and thus will never achieve those status or that they simply haven't paid their dues? | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32043 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters2/kyo-coool.jpg) Those eyes sure don't look too asian? | ||
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Oedi
Canada265 Posts
On November 05 2009 02:20 Hawk wrote: Those eyes sure don't look too asian? they do now. | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
![[image loading]](http://images.buddytv.com/battleimages/usr100490810/100490810_be5f3704-32f4-40d5-b08c-a041ed83fddb-jake-gyllenhaal.jpg) This guy is playing the Prince of Persia in the upcoming video-game based movie. He's doing it in a British accent. Not yellowface, but another example of Hollywood white-washing  | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 05 2009 01:25 underscore wrote: Unlike blacks asians are not good at acting. The perfect choice would be a black actor but the make-up takes too long and that's why they take a white guy. lol On November 05 2009 02:20 Hawk wrote: Those eyes sure don't look too asian? Kyo Kusanagi from King of Fighters is obviously supposed to be Japanese though. His last name is fucking Kusanagi for god's sake. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On November 05 2009 01:51 KissBlade wrote: Hello. Were you to post this initially, perhaps we'd have an actual discussion. However, at the moment I must actually head out and wouldn't be able to provide a fitting thoughtful response in time. I will do so when time allows. You do present good counter points but I find some of them flawed or at the very least disagreeable. Think of this until then, based upon your argument, how do you think African Americans are allowed in the main roles? Are you saying Asian Americans are simply inferior actors as a whole and thus will never achieve those status or that they simply haven't paid their dues? First I would like to say that I don't appreciate the connotation of your second question - it makes it seem that 1. You still see me as a racist, something that I would not find acceptable of a person that I am discussing such a subject with, 2. You are accusing me of inferring that point of view through my writing, as if my first paragraph truly was all a lie in order to soften you up for my argument or save face by denying racism. As a person who is attuned to fine arts that rely heavily on the vocal department (acting), I would expect that you know a real conversation that actors try to mimic have both an intellectual and emotional foundation. By filling your questions with such an inherently accusatory tone, it sets me up to make an equally offensive response, which in your case is beneficial because you are defending racial equality. I'm not sure if you are aware of this effect and thus do it intentionally or because it is your manner of debating, but I don't think it is appropriate if you truly want a respectful discussion on the questions you have asked. However, given the generally positive tone of your response I will try to not think about that as I answer. - how do you think African Americans are allowed in the main roles? African Americans are allowed in the main roles for the following reasons: 1. There are many established African American actors that have filmed movies in the past that do not depart from the American cultural scene, which means they are not expected to fill a certain role (same reason why some actors are always villains or soccer moms, except on a grander scale) as opposed to an Asian actor's near-necessity to fill an Asian cultural background (considering the fact that they are not representative of American-born Asians, which sometimes includes themselves, this is almost funny). NOTE: I don't mean that Morgan Freeman for example, or Samuel Jackson, isn't generally expected to have a certain type of character in a movie. That is certainly false. I mean that black actors as a WHOLE don't have the same restraining pre-requisites as Asian American actors. Of course there are some - movies like Friday and Barber Shop are representative of that. However it is important to note that the characters portrayed in those movies are representative of a larger population of the market, and some of the stereotypes portrayed are actually accepted by African Americans (as evidenced by some of the movies being cultural hits), although obviously not entirely (as with any stereotype or generalization, especially in terrible movies). 2. These actors became established actors over time due to the presence of African American actors in cinema for over a century, reaching back to nearly the beginnings of cinematography. Of course due to the racial climate against blacks in the United States in the early 20th century (which is unarguably worse than the current climate against Asians on the grand scale in the US today), this presence was limited for almost the entirety of the first half of the century with a few exceptions, but this pre-existing foundation was enough to boost the potential for a positive environment towards African American actors after Americans became more tolerant, and continued to grow with the increasing acceptance of African American culture up to modern times. 3. There is a longer history of African Americans on television in general, as well as in pop culture, back from the 1950's and 1960's and especially in the 70's and 80's with sitcoms and the music scene. This is also due to the increasing acceptance of African American actors.and culture in general. 4. There is a larger market for African American male roles. A larger target audience, and a larger level of audience acceptance in many cases. Notable examples are Samuel Jackson in movies like Pulp Fiction, Morgan Freeman, Whittaker, Marlon Wayans (and his family oftentimes), Denzel Washington, Dave Chappelle, and many many more. Many of these same things cannot be said of Asian Actors simply due to their history. - Are you saying Asian Americans are simply inferior actors as a whole and thus will never achieve those status or that they simply haven't paid their dues? As I just said, it's a matter of history and the level of acceptance, as well as the target market. Asian Americans are not necessarily inferior actors as a whole in terms of ability, but that is arguable simply due to the different perceptions of what ability in acting means. Like any art, as in music for example, everyone has their own tastes - which is partially why Americans are more geared towards white and sometimes black actors, and why Asian audiences (in Asia) are more geared to Asian actors. So, like music, acting needs to fit certain standards in order to garner success in a region, and some of those standards are indeed unjust or racist. Some of those standards are merely a reflection of the populace - a ragtime band right now would never be a #1 billboard hit, and perhaps by the same token an Asian American actor can never be the most successful or most popular actor in America. It's just a matter of market demographics. I don't think they will never achieve the status of being commonly used as lead actors in movies that are not geared towards martial arts or action. I just think that simply fielding more Asian Actors, disregarding the social climate, is not the solution. I also think that it will be a while before American-born Asian actors with no martial arts background can be top-10 grossing actors in America. I don't believe in "paying dues" - I think the notion of having to fulfill a racial stereotype or honoring the history of your background in cinema before being considered an established actor is stupid. I'm Russian, don't you think I'm tired of seeing the stereotypical Russian actor playing a stereotypical Russian role in a movie (gangster with an ugly face and leather jacket, speaking broken English)? Or when American actors try to portray Russians, which puts a whole new level of stereotyping into the mix? I almost cried whenever I heard the kid in Star Trek talk, his accent was the kind of demeaning accent that people take when trying to imitate Russian immigrants, I'm sure you can relate. Him being 17 and a math/physics genius is just one example of the subliminal stereotyping. It's just as bad as 'yellowface' is to you, except in some ways it is better (not actually having to put on special make up to look like the the target character), and in some ways it is worse (most Americans don't even realize that they are being spoon-fed lies and racism BECAUSE Russians are Caucasians and can easily be played by a white actor to a satisfactory level for the audience). | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32043 Posts
On November 05 2009 02:37 koreasilver wrote: lol Kyo Kusanagi from King of Fighters is obviously supposed to be Japanese though. His last name is fucking Kusanagi for god's sake. And the artists obviously borrowed features from caucasians in their rendition of the dude? | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On November 05 2009 00:32 fabiano wrote: do you think it is alright if they put a white guy to roleplay Ryu in a Street Fighter movie? I remember when I was a little kid I saw the street fighter movie for the first time and when I saw some chinese dude play Ryu I was shocked going "WTF?! He doesnt look ANYTHING like ryu.. why is he asian?" | ||
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Orlandu
China2450 Posts
On November 05 2009 02:38 fanatacist wrote: I don't think they will never achieve the status of being commonly used as lead actors in movies that are not geared towards martial arts or action. I just think that simply fielding more Asian Actors, disregarding the social climate, is not the solution. I also think that it will be a while before American-born Asian actors with no martial arts background can be top-10 grossing actors in America. I don't believe in "paying dues" - I think the notion of having to fulfill a racial stereotype or honoring the history of your background in cinema before being considered an established actor is stupid. I'm Russian, don't you think I'm tired of seeing the stereotypical Russian actor playing a stereotypical Russian role in a movie (gangster with an ugly face and leather jacket, speaking broken English)? Or when American actors try to portray Russians, which puts a whole new level of stereotyping into the mix? I almost cried whenever I heard the kid in Star Trek talk, his accent was the kind of demeaning accent that people take when trying to imitate Russian immigrants, I'm sure you can relate. Him being 17 and a math/physics genius is just one example of the subliminal stereotyping. It's just as bad as 'yellowface' is to you, except in some ways it is better (not actually having to put on special make up to look like the the target character), and in some ways it is worse (most Americans don't even realize that they are being spoon-fed lies and racism BECAUSE Russians are Caucasians and can easily be played by a white actor to a satisfactory level for the audience). Not that I disagree with your points at all, and this is slightly off-topic I guess, but the kid from Star Trek is actually a Russian immigrant, granted he apparently came to America around 6 months old (source: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0947338/bio ). Apparently you feel that he portrayed Russians poorly (and I personally have no idea, so I'm not disagreeing with you), so I'm just curious what you believe the cause of that to be? Personally I would think someone of Russian descent, especially someone with parents such as his, would be at least somewhat in touch with Russian culture and heritage and to have a somewhat accurate idea of how to sound Russian. So do you think that the problem may have been with his upbringing as a result of him being in America (thus causing him to lose many of his Russian traits), or do you think that the problem came from Hollywood's end, and that maybe they (or maybe even he himself) put pressure on the actor to portray what you feel to be an inaccurate stereotype? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to disagree or put you into a difficult position here. I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread and I think that you have some interesting points, so I was just curious what you thought about this particular subject if you don't mind sharing. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 05 2009 03:18 Hawk wrote: And the artists obviously borrowed features from caucasians in their rendition of the dude? The thing is, I generally find that in Japanese manga style art, there are little to no differences in how Caucasians and Asians are drawn when it comes to facial structure. Much of the time, the differences are only really portrayed in hair colour or facial hair or something like that. Due to this I really can't say if the artists borrowed Caucasian features when drawing their characters. It's not like visual arts always strive to be realistic. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32043 Posts
On November 05 2009 03:43 koreasilver wrote: The thing is, I generally find that in Japanese manga style art, there are little to no differences in how Caucasians and Asians are drawn when it comes to facial structure. Much of the time, the differences are only really portrayed in hair colour or facial hair or something like that. Due to this I really can't say if the artists borrowed Caucasian features when drawing their characters. It's not like visual arts always strive to be realistic. I didn't say they strive to be realistic. But it's completely obvious that facial features are borrowed from other races, seeing as you don't see any asians wide and bright eyed. | ||
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