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About half a year ago I was a self-proclaimed music lover who listened to 99% of my music through mp3s playing on my ipod (stock earbuds) or laptop speakers.
Then one day I felt like making an impulse buy at guitarcenter, and happened to grab a pair of akg k99 headphones for ~60 bucks...
Back then, I thought they sounded amazing. Suddenly, I was reliving all my old music for hours at a time (literally just sitting down listening to music, doing nothing else). My ipod earbuds were now trash and I immediately started thinking about upgrades. To make a long story short, I got dragged into audiophilia and ended up spending quite a bit of money on a decent headphone setup. I ended up with 3 terabytes of lossless .flac files, a ~600 dollar DAC/amplifier setup and a pair of flagship akg k701s
AKG k701s: aural sex, imo
I understand that most people don't feel the need to spend so much money on music, but keep in mind that my personal setup is very modest in audiophile terms (its nowhere near high end). I honestly cannot believe that I was once satisfied with my stock ipod.
If you love your music, do yourself a favor and grab a nice pair of headphones! Just make sure you avoid mass market brands like bose, skullcandy, and beats by dr dre. Those all sound TERRIBLE for the money that they cost. Even my k701s cost less than a pair of Dr Dre beats, and they sound WAY better (this is not just my opinion).
Great value buys are:
1) grado sr60s ($50-80 ) - amazing for rock music. actually, theyre just amazing in general. these could pass for $300+ headphones in terms of sound quality
2) jvc marshmallows ($20 ) - super cheap IEMs with great bass and surprisingly high quality sound
3) sennheiser cx300 ($20 ) - another great pair of IEMs
3) audiotechnica ad700 ($70-100 ) - these are awesome gaming headphones with great clarity and soundstaging (sense of space)
if you have a larger budget, you should research the forums at www.head-fi.com/forums they are a great reference. post your budget and favorite music genres and ask for recommendations!
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meh. i never really liked headphones. in my humble opinion a lot of the texture and impact of the music (especially the bassy low frequencies) is lost. speakers just sound a lot better to me. headphones sound .. flat. and I have used decent headphones and I know what youre talking about lol. but yeah each to his own.
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I have a pair of AKG headphones (can't think of the model off the top of my head) that I use when I mix and they are really awesome and only cost me $100 ausd. If they are anything like the ones you have, I understand what you mean. 
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On August 23 2009 15:58 lazz wrote:
meh. i never really liked headphones. in my humble opinion a lot of the texture and impact of the music (especially the bassy low frequencies) is lost. speakers just sound a lot better to me. headphones sound .. flat. and I have used decent headphones and I know what youre talking about lol. but yeah each to his own.
I'm not sure if you've been listening to the right headphones then. a pair of sennheiser hd800s + a good DAC and amp (total cost $3000-$5000) will beat many $10,000 - $20,000 speaker setups according to most audio critics
headphones are scientifically superior to loud speakers in clarity, detail, speed/PRaT, and overall sound quality. The only things that speakers are better at are soundstaging (i.e. surround sound) and bass quantity (not quality). However, that second point is debatable, since there are headphones with more bass than is healthy for your ears.
Try beyer dt770 pro 80-ohm headphones. The bass on those hits so hard they can literally make your head vibrate if you turn the volume up (not a joke)
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yeah dude, I have a pair of senheisers for when I produce music, they're sooooo amazing! It didn't break the bank either.
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I just don't like using headphones because it's hard to share it with other people like earbuds.
And they're really big.
Like I'd never use it outside because it's large and blocks out so much noise.
Mostly use at home.. and then I'd prob use speakers.
I use IEM made by this Chinese brand SoundMagic. PL-30 or something.
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Also if you're getting good headphones/amp setup, don't forget a good soundcard. Many people tend to go with integrated these days, but ugh, I can't stand that Realtek garbage - their drivers are trash and you can still tell a pretty big difference in quality when listening to high def. audio.
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On August 23 2009 16:17 scyper wrote:
I just don't like using headphones because it's hard to share it with other people like earbuds.
And they're really big.
Like I'd never use it outside because it's large and blocks out so much noise.
Mostly use at home.. and then I'd prob use speakers.
I use IEM made by this Chinese brand SoundMagic. PL-30 or something.
Well your preference is up to you. However, none of the statements you made about headphones are necessarily true... Soundmagic is "okay" but it doesn't represent the world of high quality IEMs/headphones very well.
- portable headphones can be small, good looking, and "sharable" and still have incredible sound (see audio-technica ESW9)
- you also have earbuds/IEMs which are extremely portable and also surpass speakers in sound quality. The shure se530 IEMs for example, have a high quality speaker plus 2 subwoofers in each earbud to simulate the immersive sound of speakers (it works amazingly well). At the high end, you have IEMs like the JH-13 ($1500) which can compare to the some of the best speaker systems in the world.
IMO, speakers have 2 purposes
1) playing music for parties/groups of people
2) playing high quality music for SUPER rich audiophiles who build special dedicated acoustic rooms just for their $500,000+ speaker system
headphones/IEMs/earbuds are just better for personal listening imo (in terms of value for money, as well as sound quality)
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51690 Posts
man my sennheiser cx500's are half-broken (like all of the power of the volume is gone, i have to pump the ipod to literally full-ball to get anything out of them) and my beyerdynamic dt-234's are screwing up.
i'm cursed with audio equipment.
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On August 23 2009 16:56 GTR wrote:
man my sennheiser cx500's are half-broken (like all of the power of the volume is gone, i have to pump the ipod to literally full-ball to get anything out of them) and my beyerdynamic dt-234's are screwing up.
i'm cursed with audio equipment.
make sure its not your ipod. I once had a similar problem, and the cause was dirt in my ipod's earphone jack
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Thanks for all the recommendations, bookmarked for future use. I have a big problem with finding decent listening devices  all the things I use tend to break in less than a year, usually around 6 month mark >.< might be because I stuff them in my pockets all the time before class starts...
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On August 23 2009 17:04 Humbug wrote:Thanks for all the recommendations, bookmarked for future use. I have a big problem with finding decent listening devices all the things I use tend to break in less than a year, usually around 6 month mark >.< might be because I stuff them in my pockets all the time before class starts...
What I used to do with earbuds is wear them under a tshirt so that the wire doesn't move around. Then when I need to take them off, just take them out of my ears and let them hang out the front of my shirt. I guess it looks a little weird (imo, it looks fine), but it protects your earphones pretty well
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I disagree with your earbud choices, the best cheap IEM on the market is the Altec Lansing UHP-336 right now. It sells for only $35 on Amazon with free shipping and no tax.
The UHP-336 is superior to normal iems because it uses a armature driver instead of a dynamic one. The UHP-336 is identical to the Ultimate ears Super fi 3 studio that sells for $130.
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51690 Posts
On August 23 2009 16:59 Wangsta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2009 16:56 GTR wrote:
man my sennheiser cx500's are half-broken (like all of the power of the volume is gone, i have to pump the ipod to literally full-ball to get anything out of them) and my beyerdynamic dt-234's are screwing up.
i'm cursed with audio equipment. make sure its not your ipod. I once had a similar problem, and the cause was dirt in my ipod's earphone jack
nah it's my headphones, i got a new pair of somewhat crap earphones and it seems fine.
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On August 23 2009 17:10 T.O.P. wrote:
I disagree with your earbud choices, the best cheap IEM on the market is the Altec Lansing UHP-336 right now. It sells for only $35 on Amazon with free shipping and no tax.
The UHP-336 is superior to normal iems because it uses a armature driver instead of a dynamic one. The UHP-336 is identical to the Ultimate ears Super fi 3 studio that sells for $130.
armatures have their own pros/cons, they aren't automatically superior to dynamics (although ultra-high end IEMs do tend to favor armatures, so I understand why you might imply that)
but in any case, the UHP336 is far from "identical" to the UE super fi.3 (which is a very, very good IEM), I don't know how you reached that conclusion
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i'll put in another vote for the sennheiser cx300's, they really blow 90% of the headphones in the <$50 price range out of the water. even if you aren't an 'audiophile', for a $20 investment, it's such a huge upgrade in sound quality from stock headphones
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I bought my Audio Technica AD700 from Amazon.com a few weeks back and they sound awesome.
Btw, its rediculous how much headphones cost in Singapore compared to USA. The same headphones cost almost twice as much in Singapore. Even after paying the shipping fees from America, I'd save 50USD
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United States4796 Posts
Damn, everyone here mixes! And obviously, so do I.
Obligatory headphone comments: I mix with a pair of AKG K181s and I love them to death. My street headphones, so to speak are a pair of WeSC Oboes. Can anyone comment on the AKG K313 earbuds? I got them for $15 and I was wondering if it was worth it to keep them or pawn them off?
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I enjoy my Sennheiser HD555 at home. I have MX560 for when I'm out and about. Used to have the 550, and frankly liked it better, but there was a tragedy and when I went to replace them, they were no longer being made T.T
I chose the HD555 because I heard they have very good balance and will play a lot of different music well. Since I listen to a lot of different kinds of music (from classical, to rock, to death metal, to rap, to dance, to whatever else tickles my fancy) I felt like these were a good advancement. I got them for 100 CAD, and when I consider that the 20 dollar earbuds I used to get broke basically every month or so, I consider it both a good choice for quality, and also a long term investment that will save me money. Not to mention they normally cost something like 200-250 CAD. Had them for about 6 months and I'm very happy with them.
iPod headphones are downright awful though. People are fooled by their high price tag into thinking 'well this must be good, and it's tried and true since I didn't have a problem with the ones that came with my iPod!' but they are really shooting a hole in their pockets. iPod ear buds do not compete at all with anything in their price range. Save your money and just get some cheap nondescript ear buds if you don't mind the quality of iPod ones.
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3) audiotechnica ad700 ($70-100 ) - these are awesome gaming headphones with great clarity and soundstaging (sense of space)
Recommended! they are the best I've ever had! they're pretty ugly though mine are in pink lol ...
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I don't usually care about headphones all that much, but I happen to own the jvc marshmallows that are on your list (won it at an event), and I will say that it is far superior to the headphones I got with my ipod.
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I think it's silly to be spending more than a couple hundred on something like headphones. The return is exponentially smaller as you spend more and more money. $100-200 is about the sweet spot to get a nice boost in quality for the money. Anything above that imo is just money that could be spent more efficiently on something else.
Edit: I own the Shure E530s ... and no, they are not worth the $250 I paid for them.
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On August 24 2009 07:43 lac29 wrote:
I think it's silly to be spending more than a couple hundred on something like headphones. The return is exponentially smaller as you spend more and more money. $100-200 is about the sweet spot to get a nice boost in quality for the money. Anything above that imo is just money that could be spent more efficiently on something else.
Edit: I own the Shure E530s ... and no, they are not worth the $250 I paid for them.
in order to take advantage of good headphones/iems, you need a high quality source. for something like the se530s, all of your portable music should be in EAC .flac format and you should be using at least a cowon a2, sansa fuze/clip, or better (i.e. something with a better dac, although these 2 mp3 players have great dacs), since the 530s are extremely transparent and will reveal flaws in your source very clearly
still, in the end, value judgment comes down to your ears and your hearing. if your ears are sensitive enough to hear a difference, and if music is important enough to you, then the cost is justified. if not, then maybe this stuff isn't for you (nothing wrong with that)
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E530s have the worst highfreq cutoffs ever. The top is just chopped right off =/. And yes, everyone knows that the quality you hear is as good as your weakest link. I listen off FLACs and clean connect through to my 'phones.
I'd say for 80% of the population, you're wasting money spending more than $200 on a headphone. In a double blind test you won't be able to hear a difference btwn a $500 and $200 headphone.
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On August 24 2009 13:38 lac29 wrote:
E530s have the worst highfreq cutoffs ever. The top is just chopped right off =/. And yes, everyone knows that the quality you hear is as good as your weakest link. I listen off FLACs and clean connect through to my 'phones.
I'd say for 80% of the population, you're wasting money spending more than $200 on a headphone. In a double blind test you won't be able to hear a difference btwn a $500 and $200 headphone.
Well then you shouldn't have bought an IEM, because all IEMs have rolled off highs except for the new JH-13 (which is $1500). this is a technical limitation which is caused by their small size. Full sized headphones dont have the same problem, so your point doesnt really apply to headphones
And the double blind test thing is ridiculous. Anybody who isn't deaf can tell the difference between 2 pairs of headphones, even in the same price range (i.e. compare any grado to any akg). The real question is whether you prefer one sound over the other.
if you are a true audiophile, you probably want a flat frequency response and fast/accurate drivers, because these features will give you clearer and more accurate sound reproduction. these things also cost a LOT of money.
compare a top quality $200 headphone like the dt770 consumer 2005 model (same drivers as the dt880/990), to a $300-400 dollar akg k701. the difference is already huge. if you can't tell the difference, the problem is your ears, not the headphones
the k701 clearly has a more neutral frequency response, which is easily audible
the k701 has clearer and more defined bass, which is easy to hear and is also clear in the technical measurements
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I kinda doubt you know how to interpret those graphs. I've been at head-fi long enough to know that so many so called audiophiles refer to those graphs with no clue what they actually represent. And I actually don't think most IEMs/buds have rolled off highs (my Yuin PK2 buds certainly don't have the same type of chopped off highs as the E530).
Great if you're enjoying your equipment. But I think it's safe to say that for most ppl, it's money not really worth spending on minimal "gains".
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I use SteelSeries Siberia in ear headphone (anti background). I prefer that than big headset.
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Don't trust graphs - they don't mean anything. Trust your ears.
I own a pair of HD 595s and my roommate has the DT 770s.
According to the graphs the frequency responses of the HD595 and the AKG 701 they should sound about the same.
And the bass
Theoretically then, the HD 595 should sound close to the 701s (which I know not to be the case). We should then be able to infer that the HD595 should sound "better" than the 770s. In practice, however, this is not the case (to the dozen or so people who have had the chance to come over and compare both) - the 770s have much highs that are much less muddled and tighter, clearer albeit weaker, bass than the 595s. (Yes I have a DAC)
The fact is, after $100 dollars or so, each dollar sees greatly diminished returns in terms of perceptible quality. Take for example the HD595 and the HD650. The HD650 costs 2x as much as the 595 but the difference in sound quality is marginal at best.
I'd say for 80% of the population, you're wasting money spending more than $200 on a headphone. In a double blind test you won't be able to hear a difference btwn a $500 and $200 headphone.
I'd say this is true for 99% of the population. Most of the people who claim they can hear the difference are just trying to justify the extra few hundred dollars they spent on their precious headphones.
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On August 24 2009 14:55 lac29 wrote:
I kinda doubt you know how to interpret those graphs. I've been at head-fi long enough to know that so many so called audiophiles refer to those graphs with no clue what they actually represent. And I actually don't think most IEMs/buds have rolled off highs (my Yuin PK2 buds certainly don't have the same type of chopped off highs as the E530).
Great if you're enjoying your equipment. But I think it's safe to say that for most ppl, it's money not really worth spending on minimal "gains".
thats fine if you dont appreciate the gains offered by hifi headphones, but dont talk as if your opinion is fact
about your first comment, I'm a cse major with electrical engineering emphasis so I consider myself knowledgeable enough to interpret these graphs. would you care to tell me why I am wrong, since you make yourself sound like you understand them better than I do?
the first graph tells me that even a high quality $200 headphone can have a wildly uneven frequency response. In the dt770s case, this means that a low frequency note that is digitally the same volume as a mid-freq note will sound like it is louder when it is physically reproduced by the drivers and reaches the listener's ear. To easily test this fact, you can download a linear sin wave mp3 and listen as the volume decreases and then increases. the second graph tells me that the k701s have more linear and accurate decay in bass notes, compared to the dt770s which have noticeable fluctuations that effectively become noise (you can easily hear that they have much poorer clarity in low frequencies)
as for your third point, pk2s are earbuds, not IEMs, there is a HUGE difference. I also happen to own pk1s which have noticeably rolled off highs compared to my k701s, despite being a higher model than the pk2. I'm not sure what reference you are using
an easy way to test your pk2s is to download a linear sine wave (try the one in the "equalize your headphones" sticky thread on head-fi) and put your pk2s right next to a microphone. record the sine wave and then open up your recording in audacity or any program that can show a graphical waveform. obviously, your microphone will not record perfectly, but you can compare your recording on the pk2s to any decent fullsize headphone or speakers. the pk2s will have considerably lower volume in high frequencies, simply due to the size of its drivers
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Unitary, did you actually look at the graph you posted? the hd595 is NOTHING like the k701s in anything other than bass. they ARE similar in bass, but virtually nothing else. look at the mid/high frequencies on the hd595s compared to the k701s..
also, if you think hd650s sound the same as hd595s, then our ears are just completely different, because they are vastly different headphones both technically and aurally
a DAC alone is completely insufficient for high quality headphones. what model are you using? do you have a dedicated headphone amp? did you properly match your output impedance to your headphone's input impedance? are you using an appropriate limiter or replaygain filter to prevent clipping in your source? are you using any DSP filters such as an equalizer/crossfeed/etc.? are you using shielded cables? is your .flac music properly encoded? is the music itself well recorded in the first place? etc. etc.
if you buy expensive headphones, you have to match that quality in every aspect of your system. you cant just dump some money into your headphones and then expect to hear results. It's like building a computer. buying a $1000 graphics card is useless if you put it inside a computer running off of a pentium 2
your DAC, amplifier, and headphones are the 3 main components for a desktop headphone setup that uses a computer as a source. each component should be of equal quality (and thus cost about the same amount), otherwise you are probably bottle-necking your quality somewhere along the line.
On August 24 2009 15:12 UnitarySpace wrote:Don't trust graphs - they don't mean anything. Trust your ears. I own a pair of HD 595s and my roommate has the DT 770s. According to the graphs the frequency responses of the HD595 and the AKG 701 they should sound about the same. And the bass Theoretically then, the HD 595 should sound close to the 701s (which I know not to be the case). We should then be able to infer that the HD595 should sound "better" than the 770s. In practice, however, this is not the case (to the dozen or so people who have had the chance to come over and compare both) - the 770s have much highs that are much less muddled and tighter, clearer albeit weaker, bass than the 595s. (Yes I have a DAC) The fact is, after $100 dollars or so, each dollar sees greatly diminished returns in terms of perceptible quality. Take for example the HD595 and the HD650. The HD650 costs 2x as much as the 595 but the difference in sound quality is marginal at best. Show nested quote +
I'd say for 80% of the population, you're wasting money spending more than $200 on a headphone. In a double blind test you won't be able to hear a difference btwn a $500 and $200 headphone.
I'd say this is true for 99% of the population. Most of the people who claim they can hear the difference are just trying to justify the extra few hundred dollars they spent on their precious headphones.
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Some more notes -
Grado SR 60s sound like crap. My roommate had a pair and he had to replace them in a month since they were so bright.
IEM's - They don't match up against full sized cans for home listening but great for listening on the go.
A caveat - IEMs are relatively fragile. Make sure you have a good warranty. In the last 2 years, I've gone through 2 pairs of Etymotic er6is, a pair of Altec Lansing im716s, i'm now on a pair of shures (cheaper and longer warranty)
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grados have a very aggressive sound so they arent for everyone, but to say they sound like crap is going against the opinion of 90% of audiophiles and virtually all audio critics. sr60s obviously aren't the best headphones in the world, but for their price ($50-80) they are amazing.
im curious, what headphones did your roommate replace his sr60s with?
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When I say they sound like crap, I mean to say that they make my ears bleed (that grado sound). That and the bass is a bit weak. They're pretty good for the price, but if you step up another $50 dollars or so you can get the sr125 which IMO are much better. To answer your other question - he replaced them with 770s.
"hd650s sound the same as hd595s"
I didn't say that. I said that the HD650s sound marginally better than the HD595 for twice the price. My roommate has a $200 DAC (Emu 0404) and a $200 amp (Headroom total bittead)
As for the quality of the recording - this has been debated on audiophile forums since forever. The consensus is that 99% of the population that can't tell the difference between a 256kb mp3 and a lossless.
Many people confuse audiophila with the love and appreciation of music. If you want to enjoy your music - a $200 pair of headphones will be more than enough. Hell, if most professional musicians don't bother to spend more than $200 on headphones, then why should I? (This is an educated guess)
edit: I now listen to a pair of Logitech speakers to listen to music. Headphones just can't give me the rumbling, teeth rattling bass that my subwoofer gives me.
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On August 24 2009 15:44 UnitarySpace wrote:
When I say they sound like crap, I mean to say that they make my ears bleed (that grado sound). That and the bass is a bit weak. They're pretty good for the price, but if you step up another $50 dollars or so you can get the sr125 which IMO are much better. To answer your other question - he replaced them with 770s.
"hd650s sound the same as hd595s"
I didn't say that. I said that the HD650s sound marginally better than the HD595 for twice the price. My roommate has a $200 DAC (Emu 0404) and a $200 amp (Headroom total bittead)
As for the quality of the recording - this has been debated on audiophile forums since forever. The consensus is that 99% of the population that can't tell the difference between a 256kb mp3 and a lossless.
Many people confuse audiophila with the love and appreciation of music. If you want to enjoy your music - a $200 pair of headphones will be more than enough. Hell, if most professional musicians don't bother to spend more than $200 on headphones, then why should I? (This is an educated guess)
edit: I now listen to a pair of Logitech speakers to listen to music. Headphones just can't give me the rumbling, teeth rattling bass that my subwoofer gives me.
- fair enough. it's true that there isnt a "night vs. day" difference between hd650s and hd595s, but the hd650s truly are the better headphone, and they happen to scale MUCH better with more expensive equipment (especially high quality tube amps). its a matter of personal preference whether this small difference is worth the cost.
- I highly disagree with the notion that 256kbps mp3s are indistinguishable from .flacs. You need a high quality system to reveal the flaws in mp3s, and most people don't have such a system, which is why they cant tell the difference
- audiophilia is directly related to music. "technically" it means a love for sound, but nobody listens to random sounds on their $1,000,000 speakers, they listen to music. a more accurate description would be a person who loves accurately reproduced music. audiophiles want their music to sound AS CLOSE as possible to what the studio engineers hear when they mix music in their studios
- you are correct that many professional sound engineers use $100-300 headphones, but people forget that they often run their headphones out of VERY expensive and high quality source equipment (sometimes running tens of thousands). this is also a moot point, because a lot of modern music is poorly mastered anyway (see "loudness war" on wikipedia), so average studio engineers in the modern music industry shouldn't be used as a reference. vintage studio headphones such as old sextett AKG k240s and beyer dt48s were once used widely in recording studios, and these are still considered some of the best headphones ever made
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I think I agree with everything you just said in the previous post.
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MY BAD.
I was comparing 770s with akg701 when in fact I have the 880s. I was so confused.
Now it makes sense.
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yeah, the hd650 (not the hd595), k701, and dt880 are in the same class of headphones and are often compared to each other. the drivers/housing do sound different, but people exaggerate those qualities, the only huge difference IMO is that the k701s are very hard to drive properly and happen to sound bad without proper amplification.
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I have to say I feel similar to OP, first you start on better headphones, then you compare the sound differences between your portable media player (Yeah Cowon!) and computer and realize the need for better source as well, then you get a DAC. I just got a emu202 and now want to blow the money on perhaps a compass as well as upgrade my headphones to something better.
Worse than drugs I tell you.
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Wowza... I was just thinking about boost my sound system, and thought a cheap portable amp might be cool, and then I came across this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f105/leaving-portable-hifi-its-too-silly-374155/
lol.. I'll have to think of another next step.
EDIT: Found an old Stereophonic Receiver that was collecting dust... It's from like.. the 70s.. BUT GUYS... If you have really nice headphones, and you wanna know the next step in audiophilia, ITS AN AMP... Good god it sounds so much better, and it already sounded damn good. Just listening to Kid A like it's the very first time.
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... I just got the ultimate ears triple.fi 10 Pro
OHMAGAWD THEY are SO fucking goood
just wow
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EPT![[image loading]](http://mksmedia.net/media/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/876412d2f3d4b4ea8a480718a6afe51a.jpg)
