i would tentatively say just remove them completely, just for the sake of slowing down the economic build-up a little bit - even though i don't like the reduction in macro skill that would cause.

Yiome

China1687 Posts

August 01 2015 19:15 GMT

Nerf or twerk macro mechanics. Because I like:
Slower economy, lower difficulties and give a more enjoyable experience to new/causal/low level players, (combined with other changes, for example increase both effect and cost of chrono/ larva injects) make macro more strategy and less mechanics requiring

phantomfive

Korea (South)404 Posts

August 01 2015 19:15 GMT

Automating something like larval inject could be a good thing. Why? Because pros do it perfectly already, so it's not an issue for them (I don't think I've seen a game where it mattered since 2013 or something). Making larval inject automatic would only help noobs have more time for fun stuff, like strategy.

The implementation would be: the queen has a button you can right-click to turn on autocast of larval inject. This is similar to how SCVs have auto-repair right now.

Aocowns

Norway6069 Posts

August 01 2015 19:27 GMT

Im gonna stay neutral as to what is best as long as they dont go for some inbetween shit. Automated injects? no. reworked larvae system? yeah could work. Manual larvae injection is also just fine by me, never found it to be a problem. kinda like doing it, feels zergy

Aocowns

Norway6069 Posts

August 01 2015 19:28 GMT

On August 02 2015 04:15 phantomfive wrote:
Automating something like larval inject could be a good thing. Why? Because pros do it perfectly already, so it's not an issue for them (I don't think I've seen a game where it mattered since 2013 or something). Making larval inject automatic would only help noobs have more time for fun stuff, like strategy.

The implementation would be: the queen has a button you can right-click to turn on autocast of larval inject. This is similar to how SCVs have auto-repair right now.

pros absolutely do not do it perfectly, like at all. It is, and pretty much always has been, one of the specific strenghts of players like Soo no matter if you feel like you've seen it or not, as far as i know

VGhost

United States2089 Posts

August 01 2015 22:37 GMT

On the one hand, the "old is better" grouch in me wants them gone completely because "BW never did it that way".

On the other hand, a macro mechanic really would be useful if it were rarer and had a real strategic value instead of there being a clear "right" way and it being just something fiddly to take care of. E.g. if a Mule were 200 energy there's more of a choice "minerals now and do without scan, or have scan available for the next 5 minutes" or whatever.

Automation is clearly the worst option.

shin ken

Germany602 Posts

August 02 2015 02:09 GMT

For me as a zerg player, always going back to your base every few moments in form of macro mechanics in SC2 or a assigning workers and morphing larva in SCBW have always been a big draw of the game, because you can be directly rewarded not only for your micro but also for your macro abilities and win off that, at least in the more casual ranks of play.

If I want more action and micro I would be playing warcraft 3 which is a much better game for that style of rts and awesome in its own right.

Maybe toning it down a bit is ok if it's a better experience for the majority of people, but at least keep it as a viable option for players who actually like to do that and don't punish players who like to look to their base and optimise their macro even in the middle of great pressure.

Also auto-inject sounds lame. That's just like regular larva spawning but accelerated. If you really had to simplifie the mechanic, I would rather suggest being able to inject bases multiple times, and tweak queen mana and queen starting mana accordingly.

TheDougler

Canada8155 Posts

August 02 2015 06:49 GMT

#10

I know I'm a scrub for thinking this way, but yeah I feel larva inject needs to be reworked. Here's the thing, creep spread is awesome. You can see when you, your opponent, or whoever you are watching is doing it right. It gives a benefit that will help you out a lot, but doesn't make or break you (at lower leagues obviously. But there's significant difference even amongst pros). In late game it still won't make or break you. If your queens have started to bank a bit of energy, no problem, you can fire off a few creep tumors and get back into shape.

Larva inject is almost none of those things. You know when you fuck up, but it's not as obvious to spectators. If you miss injects you lose, at any point in the game. If you accidentally bank energy, hopefully you spent money on macro hatches. Or else you can't inject again, might as well spend that energy on creep. Macro hatch is fine for one base, but newer players won't see pros building macro hatches for every expansion so they might not realize why they're losing.

Chrono and Mules share more with creep spread (in my opinion) than they do with larva inject. I know that sounds crazy, but hear me out.

1. If they're banked, it's not the end of the world, you can fire off a few of them (moreso for mules, but there's always things to Chrono).
2. If you miss them, it's not the end of the world. You can still make guys and get them where they need to go, it just takes a bit longer.

K, fine, maybe they do have more in common with larva inject now that I type it out. I still think overall they're far superior mechanics. Tho while we're talking about macro mechanics... It seems like supply drop could use a buff.

Cyanocyst

2222 Posts

August 02 2015 08:12 GMT

#11

Hmm puzzling. I was first writing about how i thought this was a bad idea an how we needed to keep these mechanics so we can see the play of pros shine.

But Then i thought ...i wonder how the pros would spend the extra apm they have to spare.

Could this lead to more tactical play of units, get rid of 1a syndrome? Make more small skirmishes all over the map more, where were just left in awe as each player keeps up and micros every fight?

Or would it lead to simply a lower skill cap?

Either way a decision on this shouldn't be made to appease casuals (myself included), it should be made because it makes for a better esport on the pro level.

In order to steer it towards the former, the economy might need to be looked at.

Edit: And Automation is the laziest option. Tweaking or getting rid of the mechanics will require some rebalancing. Automation seems like it just serves to make things easier for lesser players.

imJealous

United States1371 Posts

August 02 2015 10:47 GMT

#12

I still would like to see a slight softening of inject larva somehow but automation just seems like you might as well remove it out right. Which sucks.

The macro mechanics feel like something that increases skill and difficulty while also hitting the fantasy aspect just right. If you take a step back away from the esports side of things and remember your 12 year old self playing starcraft for the first time again, it makes sense to imagine yourself as the insidious insectoid horror planting eggs in your hive. It makes sense as the human colonists to be calling down mechanical labor machines to help you develop your settlement. And as the super advanced, psionic, teleporting aliens, it feels right to have the ability to manage the flow of quantum energies throughout your base to super charge your powerful alien technologies.

This was an aspect of the game that was right for the hardcore player because of what it meant for mechanics and skill differentiation, but was also right for the casual or first time player because it reinforced the fantasy of what this game is a simulation of: space exploration and conflict. It would suck to see it disappear or become marginalized.

SuperHofmann

Italy1740 Posts

August 02 2015 11:21 GMT

#13

I'm fine if they are less effective because there are specific situations where they are game changing. Something like super late game with Terran where u can just spam 10 mules and have a super economy, u can use mule to steal opponent's minerals, or u can play with zero SCVs and use only mules.

swag_bro

Japan782 Posts

August 02 2015 13:24 GMT

#14

Remove them totally. Brood War didn't have them and it was a successful game with tons of views

Shield

Bulgaria4822 Posts

August 02 2015 22:29 GMT

#15

On August 02 2015 22:24 swag_bro wrote:
Remove them totally. Brood War didn't have them and it was a successful game with tons of views

Exactly. They're not fun as well.

NyxNax

United States226 Posts

August 02 2015 22:43 GMT

#16

Well this is going to be quite a debated topic. I like that Blizzard brought this up as no one was discussing this. This shows Blizzard is thinkin outside the box at least and trying to make it a better all around game. I do think it helps define the races in SC2 and should not be the same as broodwar, but making it more simplistic for new players is a plus and may benefit pros as well since they will have a bit more time to concentrate on strategic things. Maybe making the mechanics more of a strategic move would be nice. Something that doesnt need to be babied.

Wrathsc2

United States1999 Posts

August 02 2015 22:50 GMT

#17

lessen the effect

Bastinian

Serbia177 Posts

August 02 2015 22:56 GMT

#18

Macro mechanics must be changed. Not removed but they must be changed!

CycoDude

United States326 Posts

August 03 2015 00:15 GMT

#19

i think it would be a crime to dumb the game down to that level (of automating them). things like that are what separates the good players from the great players.