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On December 02 2022 06:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2022 00:55 warding wrote:
Was Belgium's golden generation a one off thing? Seems like it's the same players since 2012. I'm expecting Fellaini to come off the bench at any moment. Yeah it pretty much was. There’s still talent coming through but there’s not really been some ingenious structural overhaul in academies or what have you that would explain the golden generation. I think they’re back to being a (relatively) middle of the pack European side with a few really top players. Whereas before they were full of real top players at the top of their game, and crucially they were spread across a bunch of positions. Which is way more important than having a ton of world class players in a squad who can’t get on the pitch at the same time (see Argentina’s last few WC squads in terms of reference for ‘stacked’ teams that aren’t really that stacked) Sorry Plasmid! Hopefully your adoptive nation will have a new golden generation soon.
I was curious about this and decided to go to Transfermarkt and get a list of the top 5 under 25 players, according to the site's player valuation, for different UEFA countries and compare to see how Belgium's pipeline compared:
+ Show Spoiler +Germany
Jamal Musiala (€100M)
Florian Wirtz (€70M)
Kai Havertz (€70M)
Karim Adeyemi (€35M)
Nico Schlotterbeck (€33M)
Spain
Pedri (€100M)
Gavi (€90M)
Cucurella (€55M)
Ansu Fati (€50M)
Dani Olmo (€40M)
France
Mbappé (€160M)
Tchouameni (€80M)
Fofana (€65M)
Koundé (€60M)
Upamecano (€50M)
Portugal
Rafael Leão (€85M)
Nuno Mendes (€60M)
João Felix (€50M)
Vitinha (€45M)
Matheus Nunes (€45M)
Belgium
Onana (€35M)
De Ketelaere (€30M)
Roméo Lavia (€25M)
Wout Faes (€20M)
Arthur Theate (€20M)
Italy
Bastoni (€55M)
Donnarumma (€50M)
Tonali (€50M)
Raspadori (€35M)
Locatelli (€30M)
Netherlands
Jurrien Timber (€45M)
Gakpo (€45M)
Sven Botman (€38M)
Koopmeiners (€30M)
Ryan Gravenberch (€30M)
England
Phil Foden (€110M)
Jude Bellingham (€100M)
Saka (€90M)
Declan Rice (€80M)
Mason Mount (€75M)
It's clear to me Belgium doesn't have much on the pipeline compared to the other top countries. Not particularly excited about Germany or The Netherlands either.
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Tough day for poor old Lukaku.
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Northern Ireland26763 Posts
On December 02 2022 06:01 DropBear wrote:
Fantastic day of games. After a shit start this tournament is lighting up.
The two big grudge matches are tomorrow. Very much looking forward to Ghana v Uruguay and Switzerland v Serbia
I think I may die a happy football viewer if Suarez pulls off another last minute miracle save.
Fond memories of barely escaping a local bar alive along with my mate as the only two people supporting Uruguay that game
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Northern Ireland26763 Posts
On December 02 2022 06:14 RowdierBob wrote:
Tough day for poor old Lukaku.
My Scudetto-delivering boy 
He’s just not fit or sharp at all, ok he did fuck up every chance but even that incarnation of Lukaku showed you what Belgium were missing in his absence.
I feel he’s cursed to not get the kudos he maybe deserves, just one of those players I guess. His performance against Brazil 2018 is up there with the best all-round forward performances I’ve ever seen he absolutely bullied them
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I told you japan can beat europeans consistently. European arrogance in football is sometimes so disgusting
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I'm happy that some of the European no-brainer picks to make it to ro16, like Denmark, Belgium, and Germany have been eliminated. The only regret is that Spain didn't join them... Gosh it was 20min away from happening.
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On December 02 2022 07:16 plasmidghost wrote:
Anyone notice that Spain completed 1058 passes vs Japan? Is that a record?
Its definitely a record for losing matches
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The FIFA site has Spain having 1061 against Costa Rica and 1059 against Japan.
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Northern Ireland26763 Posts
On December 02 2022 06:38 sharkie wrote:
I told you japan can beat europeans consistently. European arrogance in football is sometimes so disgusting
What arrogance? It’s just backed up by the history
Outside of Brazil/Argentina, and Uruguay wayyyy back there hasn’t been a non-European team in a final. I fucking loved Korea’s run in 2002 for a good underdog story, but they benefitted hugely from contentious refereeing calls. That run aside no team that isn’t from SA or Europe that has made it past the quarter finals
If the World Cup was purely meritocratic (which I’m glad it isn’t) there’d be even more European sides. 2002 Ireland (thankfully) squeezed out Holland, Italy managed to botch qualification this time round
I’m not getting where this charge of arrogance is coming from.
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There’s def a bit of elitism that comes from South America and Europe. As an Aus fan it’s def there also when we play teams from those areas. Not sure if it’s arrogance but there’s this expectation we’re not very good and they shouldn’t lose to us. Suspect it may be a bit the same with Japan.
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While Germany looked poor to give Costa Rica 2 goals, they did score 4 when their offense has looked poor the whole tournament.
Ultimately you can't really say too many negatives about this isolated performance, but the team just wasn't good enough in the tournament.
It still amazes me that Neuer has received little-to-no criticism for allowing in a ridiculously angled shot against Japan and a goal straight over his head and within reach against Spain. Stopping either of these would've sent Germany into the knockout rounds.
There are a hundred different individual errors that would've made a difference (e.g. Sane taking the damn shot at the end of the Spain game), but ultimately I think that blame has to fall squarely on Flick and he deserves to be fired. You can't get knocked out in the group stages like this and have it be acceptable. His lineup decisions were complete and utter trash the entire tournament. Starting Muller up top so much, including Gundogan, starting Kehrer, not bringing Hummels, etc. He had the team playing the terrible football that Low did and Low stuck around for far too long. It really can't be understated how terrible of an underperformance this is from Germany. Literally all 11 players that started on the pitch are starters for a team in the knockout stages of the UCL. They had an additional 6 (six!!) UCL knockout starters on the bench.
This team will go nowhere and will embarass themselves at home in 2024 if they keep him around. Flick and the older generation (e.g. Neuer, Gundogan, Muller, etc.) all need to go. Start completely new. Start completely fresh. Build around younger players like Moukoko and Musiala. There may be some growing pains but it's better than the apathetic crap we've been stuck with for a solid 6 years.
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51593 Posts
might actually go to the ro16 public viewing since its a 5 minute walk from my apartment and kickoff at 6am
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Northern Ireland26763 Posts
On December 02 2022 08:41 RowdierBob wrote:
There’s def a bit of elitism that comes from South America and Europe. As an Aus fan it’s def there also when we play teams from those areas. Not sure if it’s arrogance but there’s this expectation we’re not very good and they shouldn’t lose to us. Suspect it may be a bit the same with Japan.
Youse are alright, there’s plenty of other decent sides.
Sometimes the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts or, a team can have been together so long they kind of have the patterns of play and coaching sorted out.
But I mean broad brushing most of the top European sides have players who are starters for teams in the big Euro league
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On December 02 2022 09:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2022 08:41 RowdierBob wrote:
There’s def a bit of elitism that comes from South America and Europe. As an Aus fan it’s def there also when we play teams from those areas. Not sure if it’s arrogance but there’s this expectation we’re not very good and they shouldn’t lose to us. Suspect it may be a bit the same with Japan. Youse are alright, there’s plenty of other decent sides. Sometimes the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts or, a team can have been together so long they kind of have the patterns of play and coaching sorted out. But I mean broad brushing most of the top European sides have players who are starters for teams in the big Euro league
So does Japan...
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On December 02 2022 08:41 RowdierBob wrote:
There’s def a bit of elitism that comes from South America and Europe. As an Aus fan it’s def there also when we play teams from those areas. Not sure if it’s arrogance but there’s this expectation we’re not very good and they shouldn’t lose to us. Suspect it may be a bit the same with Japan.
Euro teams think they shouldn't lose to you because your squad consists of Scottish league and championship players. And I don't really blame them, but what they forget is that this is a national team championship, where players generally don't know one another that well. Teamplay is mediocre compared to CL football, so the teams that really put in a shift (Japan, Australia, Saudi Arabia this time around) tend to do better than expected. But these teams generally don't make it far into the knockouts.
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On December 02 2022 10:24 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2022 09:13 WombaT wrote:On December 02 2022 08:41 RowdierBob wrote:
There’s def a bit of elitism that comes from South America and Europe. As an Aus fan it’s def there also when we play teams from those areas. Not sure if it’s arrogance but there’s this expectation we’re not very good and they shouldn’t lose to us. Suspect it may be a bit the same with Japan. Youse are alright, there’s plenty of other decent sides. Sometimes the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts or, a team can have been together so long they kind of have the patterns of play and coaching sorted out. But I mean broad brushing most of the top European sides have players who are starters for teams in the big Euro league So does Japan...
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Japan_national_football_team#Current_squad Yeah, a couple. Like 3 (Tomiyasu, Minamino, maybe Yoshida)? A squad like France's consists of 25 players who are all better than everyone except those top 3. As we're seeing right know, that doesn't mean a lot in terms of results, but the difference is clear.
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yeah european teams being favourites over any asian team isnt arrogance, its common sense. that doesnt mean the underdog will never win; thats why we love football. but the expectation to win is always greater on the european teams and its rightly so. on paper spain and germany should never have lost to japan. the stats are all greatly in favour of spain and germany also. but in reality shit happens and often times underdogs play with more organisation, desire and heart and in football thats usually what matters.
anyways im excited for tonights games. im hoping korea pulls off another miracle against portugal 2002 style and suarez does another handball to knock ghana out. if i cant get the former then ill definitely settle for the latter. just imagining the scenes if ghana gets knocked out by uruguay again due to another deliberate handball is hilarious
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EPT
