EPTOn January 26 2017 23:30 LegalLord wrote:What's wrong with saying that certain cultures are ass-backwards? People feel perfectly justified in saying the same about certain European countries whenever they do something that is looked upon unfavorably by the "EU" so why is this different?
What are you even on about? You have been on an anti-EU crusade for a while now, implying all sorts, but you never substantial your claims. When someone calls you out on it, you just deflect and talk about something else."Hateful posts" (ABL tangent) - Page 2
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On January 26 2017 18:47 Laurens wrote: There's a difference between "hating immigrants" and "believing immigration has a negative effect for my country". I don't think anyone in this discussion has claimed the former. Yuljan attempted to explain the latter, his post is in the quote in OP. How does an immigrant have a negative effect on your country? What is the difference between having one more immigrant or one more native? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17852 Posts
On January 26 2017 23:30 LegalLord wrote: What's wrong with saying that certain cultures are ass-backwards? People feel perfectly justified in saying the same about certain European countries whenever they do something that is looked upon unfavorably by the "EU" so why is this different? This is TeamLiquid website feedback, so lets go. Please show me 1 post from these forums that wasn't actioned against that calls a "certain European country": a backward 1000 year old culture or something equivalent. Put up, boyo. | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25649 Posts
 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I don't see this post being fro the US politics thread; and while you might call it ruined, I'd say it's serving its purpose well; and I'd like to keep it on topic, and not get into problems unrelated to that thread. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 27 2017 01:08 Acrofales wrote: This is TeamLiquid website feedback, so lets go. Please show me 1 post from these forums that wasn't actioned against that calls a "certain European country": a backward 1000 year old culture or something equivalent. Put up, boyo. I could perhaps search for it later (when I am on a computer with reasonable search capabilities) but I would say any form of "this country is fascist/authoritarian/stupid because they don't support some policy X" is about morally equivalent here. That's about equivalent to saying a certain culture or other is ass-backwards. The only difference is that here, it's perceived as racist, but the implications are the same since being racist against cultures delineated by nation rather than skin color isn't a thing. This is a Europe thread matter, but if KBB so desires we can move it to US Politics from here on out. | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
On January 26 2017 23:12 opisska wrote: I talk like that to everyone, so it doesn't really mean much  Actually I find your posts easier to read than most, mostly because you just go straight to the point, and you seem to simply mean what you write (and vice-versa), regardless of the topic and who you are talking to. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4518 Posts
On January 27 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote: I could perhaps search for it later (when I am on a computer with reasonable search capabilities) but I would say any form of "this country is fascist/authoritarian/stupid because they don't support some policy X" is about morally equivalent here. That's about equivalent to saying a certain culture or other is ass-backwards. The only difference is that here, it's perceived as racist, but the implications are the same since being racist against cultures delineated by nation rather than skin color isn't a thing. This is a Europe thread matter, but if KBB so desires we can move it to US Politics from here on out. Just scan the EU or UK politics thread for comments about Orban or Hungary. "Backwards" isn't even close to the stuff said about him. But like you said, no one minds if the insults are directed at an EU country. | ||
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KadaverBB
Germany25649 Posts
 I just don't want to wake up to 5 pages of something that is only closely related to the original OP, which is something we are dealing with internally for now | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 27 2017 02:38 LegalLord wrote: I could perhaps search for it later (when I am on a computer with reasonable search capabilities) but I would say any form of "this country is fascist/authoritarian/stupid because they don't support some policy X" is about morally equivalent here. That's about equivalent to saying a certain culture or other is ass-backwards. The only difference is that here, it's perceived as racist, but the implications are the same since being racist against cultures delineated by nation rather than skin color isn't a thing. This is a Europe thread matter, but if KBB so desires we can move it to US Politics from here on out. Typical unsubstantiated crap from legalord. No, it's not equivalent. Don't even argue that it is, like you do in other threads. Black is not white. I'll happily say that it that UK is currently on a course to leave the EU is stupid because they don't support policy X. That is not equivalent to sayuing British culture is ass-backwards. It's not rascist to say so, the implications are not the same, and nations are not delineated by culture. If you think it's off topic, as you are the one who started this offtopic, you can kindly refrain from posting here, instead of asking mods to hide the sheer unadulterated crap you just posted. On January 27 2017 02:53 Laurens wrote: Just scan the EU or UK politics thread for comments about Orban or Hungary. "Backwards" isn't even close to the stuff said about him. But like you said, no one minds if the insults are directed at an EU country. I frequent both the EU and UK politics thread. Neither has said anything of the sort as far as I can recall. Not even close. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17852 Posts
On January 27 2017 02:53 Laurens wrote: Just scan the EU or UK politics thread for comments about Orban or Hungary. "Backwards" isn't even close to the stuff said about him. But like you said, no one minds if the insults are directed at an EU country. This might be straying too far into actual EU politics rather than website feedback, but do you see the difference between calling Orban an asshat dictator, and calling all refugees medieval? And I don't think people have said much nasty stuff about Hungarians without being warned/banned. I know that the few people who had a hand to say nasty shit about Polish people (particularly some specific western Europeans have that tendency) got warned/banned for it. I'm going to address LegalLord's post as well here, so as to keep it concise. You two seem to agree in any case. I disagree completely that "medieval" is in the same category as "fascist" or "authoritarian". It is in the same category as stupid. If you can find a post that categorically says that Hungarians (or some other group) are stupid, without that being actioned I'd be quite surprised. Also, context is important. "God, Hungarians are stupid, because they voted in Orban" is clearly not the same as saying "God, these refugees' culture is medieval". In the latter, you are clearly using the adjective to announce your frustration at the Hungarians' action. If they hadn't voted for Orban, you wouldn't be calling them stupid. Ergo, the action of voting for Orban is the stupid thing, not Hungarians in general (moreover, Orban required at least a majority of Hungarians to vote for him, which will be important in a few sentences). Whereas in the latter, you are categorizing refugees' culture as being medieval: there is no specific action that they could have done differently. Yuljan is not saying "those refugees who assaulted the girls in Dusseldorf are medieval assholes", he's using that tiny minority (the actual medieval assholes) as a representation of the whole group (refugees). As for authoritarian/fascist: these are underdefined terms, but they are political terms with a political meaning, and have a place in a political debate. If people start slinging "Hungarians are fascists" around, they deserve the same warning/ban as someone saying "refugees are medieval", because the intent is clearly not to discuss the fascist policies of Hungary, but rather to make a derogatory remark and end the debate. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 26 2017 22:55 BigFan wrote: Opisska: I'm sorry but what? Did you even read that small post of mine that you quoted from ABL? I say it right in the second part that I empathize with his situation. So, tell me, what do you expect me to do? Change his immigration laws? Fly over to where he's living and have a heart to heart conversation? The guy clearly made up his mind from his "extensive" experience. I mean, having "lived in a muslim dominated neighbourhood and also studied in a muslim country for half a year" clearly makes you an expert on the religion, Islam, right? After all, all muslims are perfect practitioners of Islam as well, aren't they? That's why all muslims see eye to eye on everything, right? Give me a fucking break. If he wanted to have an actual conversation, he would've phrased his whole post differently. The guy clearly knew what he was posting because he's posted similar inflammatory posts in the past and got actioned for them by two separate mods (see posts below). He is free to disagree with Islam's principles and state that he doesn't believe it works with western values and that would've been fine, but, let's be real, his post had clearly hateful components and should've at least been warned but got banned precisely due to his mod history (Laurens). These posts were written about a month ago. I don't need to tell you what's wrong with either one, should be pretty obvious to anyone. So, what does he decide to do? Well, why not test TL mods again and have more direct bashing. I'm sorry but no. Part of his post was clear hate speech, cut and dry. There's no way around it. TL shouldn't be condoning such statements either. Otherworld's post explains his post in great detail so I would recommend reading it before commenting further. As has been mentioned by some posters, this is a primarily starcraft site. Just because there is a general forum where other topics are discussed doesn't mean you can start bashing every thing you hate and think you should get a pass. If the guy is frustrated with how things are going, as mentioned in my earlier post, talk with close friends about it. Don't air your dirty laundry on TL! While I typically don't disagree with Kadaver's actions because I think he's a great mod overall, this reversal isn't a great idea imo. These types of posts should not exist on TL. By reversing this, you essentially opened the floodgate for all similar comments bashing other religions and I don't think you realize the extent of it either. As Acrofales stated, there are clear lines that shouldn't be crossed on TL and it should've been left that way. I've seen way too forums become filled with racism once a mod decided to give leeway to a poster. I'll respect the decision but suffice to say, I'm extremely disappointed that his post is allowed to stay with no repercussions. Like Otherworld, I would've also thought TL standards were the highest having spent so much of my time volunteering for the site so I hope this decision is reviewed. I broadly agree with what was written here; in particular this part: While I typically don't disagree with Kadaver's actions because I think he's a great mod overall, this reversal isn't a great idea imo. These types of posts should not exist on TL. By reversing this, you essentially opened the floodgate for all similar comments bashing other religions and I don't think you realize the extent of it either. As Acrofales stated, there are clear lines that shouldn't be crossed on TL and it should've been left that way. I've seen way too forums become filled with racism once a mod decided to give leeway to a poster. The problem is one of consistency and a lack of clear guidelines. With a lack of clear guidelines, in effect warnings and bans are the methods used to create the ruleset, as in law by way of precedent. Unfortunately, as clear leniency has been given to individuals who were otherwise writers or were accomplished in bw or forum veterans; and from therein lies the problem. Due to such lack of action given to those individuals, has the floodgates for such posts been opened. So there remains three possible outcomes: 1) To remain at the current system of a lack of clear guidelines, where certain people can descend closely into hatespeech and not get warned and banned, and so encourage other posters to do the same. Borderline cases will get banned with people arguing for and against the ban. 2) To accept that hateful speech is acceptable in the forum. 3) To have clear guidelines, or consistency and make sure that all hateful speech is warned/banned. Improve the standards of posting, no matter who it is that is posting. Multiple false facts, written in such a way that is not constructive? Make it bannable. Make it clear that it is not acceptable. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 26 2017 17:47 opisska wrote: Labeling opinions held by millions of people as "hate speech" is simply not a solution. Hiding in a shrinking bubble while the whole continent is being taking over by rampant xenofobia is the exact opposite of social responsibility. I really do not see how I can explain it further. I understand the idea of suppressing hateful speech and isolating those who perpetuate it in the hope that it will not spread, but this ship has sailed. I am not saying that you have to agree with their simplified view of Islam, but I would propose trying to argue with them, instead of just forcing them away, into their own bubbles, where their view will only become reinforced. The communication between the "tolerant" and the "islamophobic" camps is painfully needed at the moment, otherwise it just becomes a blind battle of simplifications. This really is my main point here - and I want to get it across independently of my actual opinion on Islam and religion in general. I am aware that those opinions might be known to some of you, thus possible devaluating my point because it can be taken as "kicking for my team", but I am sincerely asking people to not do that. well this thread went to shit since i went to sleep. labeling it hate speech and moderating it is perfectly fine when the purpose of this site is not political/racial/whatever discussion. its starcraft. they have expanded it beyond that out of their good graces, but have never indicated that it was intended to avoid the main purpose of this site: a welcoming place for people all over the world to gather to discuss starcraft. i see your point that it should be addressed head on (probably by calling them ignorant and being done with it), but again, thats not the purpose of this site. you also really havent addressed the issue of if you allow it on tl, it will spread all over and people will think its justified since its no longer against the rules. then we get people using disparaging words in every thread that the ignorant people decide they want to take a piss on. thats not a workable solution. i guess you could have a "i am an ignoramus and like to hate on groups" thread, and let them go rampant in there. i personally think its not worth my time to speak with them, but other people can feel free to "communicate" with them. also, it will take less than three pages before the thread will get shut down because its a cesspool and there will be no real communication, but i have been wrong before--maybe tl will become the first place on earth where ignorant people see the errors in their ways. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 27 2017 03:23 Acrofales wrote: I disagree completely that "medieval" is in the same category as "fascist" or "authoritarian". It is in the same category as stupid. If you can find a post that categorically says that Hungarians (or some other group) are stupid, without that being actioned I'd be quite surprised. Also, context is important. "God, Hungarians are stupid, because they voted in Orban" is clearly not the same as saying "God, these refugees' culture is medieval". In the latter, you are clearly using the adjective to announce your frustration at the Hungarians' action. If they hadn't voted for Orban, you wouldn't be calling them stupid. Ergo, the action of voting for Orban is the stupid thing, not Hungarians in general (moreover, Orban required at least a majority of Hungarians to vote for him, which will be important in a few sentences). Whereas in the latter, you are categorizing refugees' culture as being medieval: there is no specific action that they could have done differently. Yuljan is not saying "those refugees who assaulted the girls in Dusseldorf are medieval assholes", he's using that tiny minority (the actual medieval assholes) as a representation of the whole group (refugees). I don't see the distinction "Hungarians are stupid cuz Orban" from "Islam is mediæval, look at these assaults to see it" as significant. Both are contentious statements requiring more clarification but in my eyes neither should be banworthy. I certainly don't see it as some ugly form of "hate speech" that shouldn't be tolerated. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 27 2017 03:54 LegalLord wrote: Legalord, quotes, but cannot even quote properly.I don't see the distinction "Hungarians are stupid cuz Orban" from "Islam is mediæval, look at these assaults to see it" as significant. Both are contentious statements requiring more clarification but in my eyes neither should be banworthy. I certainly don't see it as some ugly form of "hate speech" that shouldn't be tolerated. "God, Hungarians are stupid, because they voted in Orban" /= "Hungarians are stupid cuz Orban". "God, these refugees' culture is medieval" /= "Islam is mediæval, look at these assaults to see it". In any case "Hungarians are stupid cuz Orban" would entirely deserve a ban so why legalord is arguing it isn't is quite beyond me. In your own words, put up or shut up, dude. When has anybody said that certain cultures are ass-backwards? Which people feel perfectly justified in saying the same about certain European countries whenever they do something that is looked upon unfavorably by the "EU". Or are you just going to continuously deflect and misquote? | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On January 27 2017 03:48 dAPhREAk wrote: i guess you could have a "i am an ignoramus and like to hate on groups" thread, and let them go rampant in there. i personally think its not worth my time to speak with them, but other people can feel free to "communicate" with them. Those threads exist, they are called US, UK and EU politics They are Fun to read, but the noise-to-signal and bigot-to-... Well, non-bigot ratios are the worst I've observed since the invention oft IRC | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
It's probable that the phrase is warnable, hence the reversal without apology (I say probable without consulting others at length about what action they think is appropriate). This doesn't set a precedent or kind of slippery slope like some have suggested. This is an isolated incident (for now) and we'll treat each incident on a case by case basis just like we've always done. EDIT: Come on, had the guy replaced this sentence with something like "I don't think we can say, looking at the world right now, that Islam is a religion of peace", I'm fairly certain he wouldn't have been banned, even though his post still reeked of carefully disguised hate speech. Reflect on this sentiment -- Yuljan was banned because he didn't hide his hate well enough in his post. This comes back to my point that anti-immigration views almost invariably reduce to a hate/discomfort with a race/religion and causes the aforementioned problems.Finally, anyone expecting TL to hold a higher standard, know that we still act against hate wherever that action is reasonable. In particular, outside of the politics threads this kind of posting would never be acceptable. The only reason action is questionable in this context is because (to some extent) they might be necessary for users to discuss (very real) issues facing the world right now. This special status, is of course, unique to the politics threads. And, of course, we might change our minds about that at some point in the future and if that happens you'll all be made aware of that. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On January 27 2017 11:22 Plexa wrote: [list][*]This was not a 30-day ban actionable offence. While Yuljan does have a mod history concerning the subject, the last ban/warning along these lines was over a year ago - not within a month like initially thought. Moreover one of those actions is specifically for taking pot shots at the mod team as opposed to other post content. oops, yes, you're right. I completely misread the ban dates as Dec 2016 and Jan 2017 hence the longer 30 day ban instead of a smaller action such as warning had I noticed my reading error. My post was written based on this erroneous piece of information so unfortunately, I can't say much else other than agreeing that moderating can be quite difficult at times, keeping TL standards is of utmost importance and that case by case basis is best used for each report considering the current state of our world. | ||
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fluidrone
France1478 Posts
Nice read: yes it is good to have/see moderators reflect upon their actions, especially/specifically on real hard life subject matter and question themselves publicly (after doing it privately). Bad call: i personally disagree with the fact that "hiding your hate well" is any better than "not hiding it well enough" and would cast my "vote" for there being a clear cost to posting such things ("islam is the most blablabla" "jew should do blabla"). We see this "hide your hate better" from heads of states every time they attempt to "communicate" to their own people about these vital issues (immigration/emigration/religious cultural differences/ historical remembrance etc) while still trying to get elected and between heads of states themselves while only wanting to get something out of each other which is arguably bad for the citizens themselves. How can we not rise above that on a kiddies forum? Yes!!!!! we must discuss these things, to not is suicidal! i agree there with oppiska's stance that banning them and not saying why is clearly a bad move. Citing the exact problematic part of the post and making it clear to all who read it AND to the poster why action was taken is primordial. Also adding every time that this platform (tl but internet as a whole) is aimed at discussion but does not accept people who cross THEIR line to continue unscathed ..even less so if done repeatedly, is important/vital. Yes discussion is vital but however, the way you do discuss these things is as vital and therefore the moderating/admin team's role in this is paramount and decisive (not to mention really hard AND ultimately doomed to fail many times). For instance the tl usual "double standard" (tl veteran/tl mod/people that have contributed a lot/pro gamers etc that "could" get away with more) is clearly out of bounds on these issues (or it should be)! (i'm not saying it is happening, just that it shouldn't happen, i confess to not liking being a cop/snitch so i'm not out looking for any of those). Most of the internet (i'll take apathetic unapologetic self centered streamers as a shinning appalling example of this dangerous trend) are saying that they don't allow any type of political/religious discussions and that is an admittance of failure from where i am sitting. i am therefore glad that Team Liquid has DECIDED to not do that or more to the point that it has not gotten beaten out of them yet, but i would argue to death that it will happen if the line is not enforced. Posting "2017 muslim countries are still mediaval" or "jews should stop reminding people about the holocaust" should not be allowed (again, with a clear message repeated EVERY time as to why action has been taken!). Furthermore, i would argue that basing one's rational on how well posters hide their hate is already the slippery slope. In fact, it is clear that these exchanges/discussions can happen without hate being present in posts.. you can simply state facts and that should be powerful enough, no? You can say "stonings are allowed by law in this X country" "when accused, heads of states in this Y country are investigated by people that work for them" on and on.. that will never get you banned/warned.. so i really fail to see how (in light of facts being more and more available) there is any reason to accept veiled hate? Again, it is not about having "thicker skin".. it is about respect! Respect for the people reading .. that means ALL the people reading (particular impressionable kids, this is a kiddies forum! to discuss gaming) and yes this "respect" is vital for those who want to give in to hate and not communicate anymore.. giving them a clear message that yes they have a voice and can use it.. BUT NOT for using it to spread hate, it is meant for exchanging and discussing facts. Edit: i'm done editing my own vernacular, and yeah 1 hour + to edit is slow, sorry  ..just to end it on a positive note: thank you for Team Liquid moderators/admins for believing in this as long as they have the strength to do so! (i'm well aware of the toll it takes on people to do this and also that it takes many people believing in dialog to manage even a little bit of dialog to emerge from emotion driven communications) thank you for your time  | ||
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