On February 28 2025 20:21 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2025 19:50 oBlade wrote:On February 28 2025 05:34 Nebuchad wrote:On February 21 2025 13:41 oBlade wrote:
What about forking to separate "Politics" and "Call everyone fascists" threads? Never been called a fascist on this thread as far as I remember, maybe it's a you problem? You read this wrong on purpose because you are probably part of the problem. It has nothing to do with "me," there are people from various countries whose only existence in the thread is spamming everyone and everything is fascist. There had been about 10 pages straight of it whenever I posted that. You're right I did this on purpose but it wasn't wrong. Your tactic and that of much of the republican party is to pretend that "everyone and everything" is being called fascist (/racist/transphobic/homophobic), when that is not the case. You do that to shield the people who are being called that from criticism by pretending the criticism is unhinged and attacking everything from Hitler to poneys that look like unicorns. It isn't.
If you see a Republican in the thread, please criticize him to your heart's desire.
I am not making a political point, I am talking about post quality on a website. For example if had a thread about pictures from a certain country, and a group of people, mostly from other countries, constantly posted pictures of feet in the thread - while technically qualifying as pictures, it suggests a different pattern of grouping - not that they shouldn't post pictures of feet, but that perhaps esoteric discussions of the subtle differences among the various feet might not appeal to people who are trying to browse pictures in general, which the thread is ostensibly about, and also it's fruitless when most anyone who posts a picture of anything else immediately and predictably gets quoted/replied to with a shoddily made 32x32 icon of a foot again. Even if some of the feet were to end up being some of the most popular, well-known, and high quality feet also, perhaps the existence of a foot thread would serve needs better, is the point for consideration.
Let me give something of an example so we aren't just running off our least charitable impressions of what the other is thinking.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2025 00:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 00:42 Uldridge wrote:
Maybe start by incentizing 30% of the population to vote instead of pandering to vile people. What a cope, KwarK. You are now at stage 2. At one point I thought the notion that libs/Dems/ilk would prefer fascism to even just European social democracy was absurd. I don't really see how I can dispute it at this point. You prefer fascism. You wouldn’t do the bare minimum to prevent it. You can’t wait to pick up the baton against trans people and immigrants and as an immigrant I don’t really appreciate that. You’re one of the Americans responsible for this. On February 20 2025 00:55 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2025 22:56 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:48 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 22:41 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:16 KwarK wrote:
Trump, and his chosen cult of yes men, are enthusiastic about the prospect of using force against American citizens. They genuinely believe that their culture war is a real war and that there is a real enemy that is trying to destroy America by teaching history and measuring co2 levels etc. The idea that they’re going to back down from a challenge because some people go on strike is madness, they want people to go on strike, they want people to protest, they’re eager for the fight, they think they’ll win it by using force. Protest and facial recognition AI will put you on the list. Organize using social media and the security services will log every participant.
People still believe in a rule of law that no longer exists, and that’s why they’ll lose. They believe that as they’re detained indefinitely they’ll cry out “actually you’re not allowed to do this” and a bald eagle will break them out of jail. They believe that a general will refuse to follow orders, but also Trump won’t be able to dismiss that general and replace him with one who will. They don’t understand that they lost. That the Trump White House has already started simply ignoring court orders it doesn’t like.
This strike nonsense is nowhere near radical enough. If you plan to challenge the US government with direct action then you can’t also count on the power of the state to protect you from itself. That may be true, it may also be false. The first step in demanding change is to actually demand it. If you say it's going to fail, so better not try, you have already failed. If Trump's answer to a general strike and mass protests is to send in the national guard then obeying that order is up to the national guard. If the army obeys the dictator, there is generally very little you can do. But the US having a Tiananmen Square moment would definitely change peoples' minds about what society they live in. If, instead, you get a Tahrir Square moment then you live in a very different society. Or maybe it doesn't escalate that far in the first place. In any case, if you don't protest the abuse of power, why should anyone stop abusing it? There are other forms of direct action. I think we're all open to suggestions here, so spitball with us! What do you think should be done to halt Trump's autocratic takeover? There was an entire historical period in which vast amounts of money was spent on both the theory and the practical testing and application of tools to deal with fascist states. Everybody, including you, knows what works against fascists once they wield the powers of a state. I know of exactly two ways in history a fascist state stopped being fascist. Massively losing a war to an outside force who commits to an occupation to remove the fascism and waiting for the fascist dictator to die of old age and hoping the state turns democratic afterwards. None of those two really work well if the US is that fascist state. I guess Trump could die of old age pretty soon. I guess if you include communist dictatorships you could also wait for economic collapse. But even that doesn't always work, see NK. On February 20 2025 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 00:54 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 20 2025 00:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 20 2025 00:45 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Thank you for answering KwarK. I don't have it in me to keep the back and forth going when the evidence is right there. The childish name-calling is tiring and the insistence that Ds didn't do enough when they bent over backwards to cater to damn near every demographic is just plain wrong.
People acting like just because they didn't get 10000% concession on every minor quibble, the Ds failed them spectacularly. The Ds did an admirable job pivoting and fell short. They hold a lot of blame as well. But to say no one else does? That's not how it works. The Dems failed everyone spectacularly. Again their job was to win the election. The voting public failed everyone spectacularly. Again, their job was to prevent trump from winning. No it isn't. Their job is to vote for who they want to vote for. You're getting this very, very wrong. If i go shopping and there is two stores next to each other selling the same thing, and I choose the one that I want to go in to, you are the owner of the other store yelling at me for not going in yours. Both the Democratic leadership and the voters are to blame. Neither group is blameless. Democratic leadership should have been more persuasive, and voters shouldn't have been so stupid and misinformed. (You wrote that voters voted for who they wanted, but many didn't actually do that. To follow your shopping analogy, it would be like the Democratic store selling an item for $10, the Republican store selling the same item for $20, and the voter saying "I want the cheaper option" but then shopping at the Republican store. The Democrats' sign should have been bigger, but the voters should have also taken the time to read the current signs.) On February 20 2025 01:54 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 01:17 Uldridge wrote:
Could you elaborate on how the voters were stupid and misinformed? Voters were warned that Trump surrounded himself with the people who wrote project 2025, the blueprint for a fascist takeover of the government. They voted for Trump. Either they are stupid and misinformed or they were ok with the prospect of a fascist takeover of the government. On February 20 2025 01:25 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 01:17 Uldridge wrote:
Could you elaborate on how the voters were stupid and misinformed? I want to be fair here, voters are stupid and misinformed, but its the job of society and the people who run that society to make their populace not stupid and misinformed, this suddenly libertarian mindset that Democrat supporters adopt in these moments is wild to me. Like yeah, Americans are dumb and dont know shit about their government, thats just a fact, but I have a hard time blaming individuals for the failings of their leadership. On February 20 2025 01:28 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 01:17 Uldridge wrote:
Could you elaborate on how the voters were stupid and misinformed? One only needs to look at r/leopardsatemyface for a daily dose of misinformed voter moments. Propaganda is a hell of a drug. Some of the voting blocks being blamed here is pretty much victim blaming. Dems failed spectacularly at their job. But everyone else should've done their part in enabling this barely functional system they got going. If people want a functioning democracy, and their options are a gerontocracy or a fascist gerontocracy, there really isn't much to get excited for and go vote On February 20 2025 02:36 kAra wrote:
if i want to enter the USA for vacation, do i need russian or american visa? On February 20 2025 03:40 KT_Elwood wrote:
REEEEE!!
In Indiana a 28 year old David Cherry has been arrested for "threatening" Elon Musk on Twitter.
FREEE SPEECH??!? ANYBODY???
Police had a search warrant for his home, and took his legally owned assault rifle, handgun, ammunition and body armor.
THEY ARE GOING AFTER GUN OWNERS! THE FEDS ARE COMING! On February 20 2025 06:34 Zambrah wrote:
Fascists have historically been very susceptible to voting, the power of voting has definitely been a bigly successful and useful tool in how we've handled fascism in the past. On February 20 2025 06:01 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2025 23:38 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 23:07 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:56 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:48 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 22:41 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:16 KwarK wrote:
Trump, and his chosen cult of yes men, are enthusiastic about the prospect of using force against American citizens. They genuinely believe that their culture war is a real war and that there is a real enemy that is trying to destroy America by teaching history and measuring co2 levels etc. The idea that they’re going to back down from a challenge because some people go on strike is madness, they want people to go on strike, they want people to protest, they’re eager for the fight, they think they’ll win it by using force. Protest and facial recognition AI will put you on the list. Organize using social media and the security services will log every participant.
People still believe in a rule of law that no longer exists, and that’s why they’ll lose. They believe that as they’re detained indefinitely they’ll cry out “actually you’re not allowed to do this” and a bald eagle will break them out of jail. They believe that a general will refuse to follow orders, but also Trump won’t be able to dismiss that general and replace him with one who will. They don’t understand that they lost. That the Trump White House has already started simply ignoring court orders it doesn’t like.
This strike nonsense is nowhere near radical enough. If you plan to challenge the US government with direct action then you can’t also count on the power of the state to protect you from itself. That may be true, it may also be false. The first step in demanding change is to actually demand it. If you say it's going to fail, so better not try, you have already failed. If Trump's answer to a general strike and mass protests is to send in the national guard then obeying that order is up to the national guard. If the army obeys the dictator, there is generally very little you can do. But the US having a Tiananmen Square moment would definitely change peoples' minds about what society they live in. If, instead, you get a Tahrir Square moment then you live in a very different society. Or maybe it doesn't escalate that far in the first place. In any case, if you don't protest the abuse of power, why should anyone stop abusing it? There are other forms of direct action. I think we're all open to suggestions here, so spitball with us! What do you think should be done to halt Trump's autocratic takeover? There was an entire historical period in which vast amounts of money was spent on both the theory and the practical testing and application of tools to deal with fascist states. Everybody, including you, knows what works against fascists once they wield the powers of a state. So you think we're in 1939-stage fascism? I don't think you've had your Night of the Long Knives yet. At the very least you should try to set your Reichstag on fire first, right? They’re control big tech. They control the apps people use for communication. They control popular media. They’ve stacked the courts and are simply ignoring court orders they don’t like. They’ve removed all oversight and are concentrating executive power which they’ve also removed all restrictions on. They’ve had everyone wiretapped for decades. They’ve had Fox News on constantly in every army barracks for decades. We lost. The reason it was so important to vote Democrat in November was to avoid handing them the keys to the kingdom. But people were too morally pure to vote against the takeover and now those same people are going “what if we just tell the king no” as if the king gives a shit what they think. They wasted their shot. So let me get this straight, your choices were: 1. Vote Democrats 2. Inevitable Fascism and pray Mexico invades and saves your country. You tried (1) and failed so there is now literally nothing more for you to do. Oh well, better hope Mexico can help. If voting democrats once every few years can't stop fascism, nothing outside of WW3 can. It seems that for someone as smart as you are, that is an incredibly dumb take. On February 20 2025 06:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 06:34 Zambrah wrote:
Fascists have historically been very susceptible to voting, the power of voting has definitely been a bigly successful and useful tool in how we've handled fascism in the past. I get that your being sarcastic but yes, it is. Once Fascists are in power they tend to not want to leave, and once in control of the state they have access to the state tools of violence. Not voting Fascists into power is the best way to keep them from power, because then all that is left is a coup and those are tricky when you don't control the military, via not being in power and not being able to appoint those in charge (and firing those who won't bend the knee) On February 20 2025 06:39 Zambrah wrote:
Fascists not being born is actually the best way to keep fascists out of power, its also about as realistic as voting solving the fascist problem.
Heres the real actual answer to how we deal with fascists,
Violence.
Surprise! Its violence. Violence is genuinely the answer to "how do we deal with the fascists?" On February 20 2025 08:15 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 08:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 08:07 Acrofales wrote:On February 20 2025 07:34 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 06:01 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 23:38 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 23:07 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:56 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 22:52 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:48 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
There are other forms of direct action. I think we're all open to suggestions here, so spitball with us! What do you think should be done to halt Trump's autocratic takeover? There was an entire historical period in which vast amounts of money was spent on both the theory and the practical testing and application of tools to deal with fascist states. Everybody, including you, knows what works against fascists once they wield the powers of a state. So you think we're in 1939-stage fascism? I don't think you've had your Night of the Long Knives yet. At the very least you should try to set your Reichstag on fire first, right? They’re control big tech. They control the apps people use for communication. They control popular media. They’ve stacked the courts and are simply ignoring court orders they don’t like. They’ve removed all oversight and are concentrating executive power which they’ve also removed all restrictions on. They’ve had everyone wiretapped for decades. They’ve had Fox News on constantly in every army barracks for decades. We lost. The reason it was so important to vote Democrat in November was to avoid handing them the keys to the kingdom. But people were too morally pure to vote against the takeover and now those same people are going “what if we just tell the king no” as if the king gives a shit what they think. They wasted their shot. So let me get this straight, your choices were: 1. Vote Democrats 2. Inevitable Fascism and pray Mexico invades and saves your country. You tried (1) and failed so there is now literally nothing more for you to do. Oh well, better hope Mexico can help. If voting democrats once every few years can't stop fascism, nothing outside of WW3 can. It seems that for someone as smart as you are, that is an incredibly dumb take. I mean if you ignore literally all the other posts then sure, you could take my meaning to be giving up. But I was very clear that there were alternatives in other posts. It’ll take more than going to DC in a vagina hat though. Yeah, so you, personally are giving up. You might be secretly hoping that someone else uses their second amendment rights, but you are personally not only not going to exercise your first amendment right (other than to maybe go and vote for the democrats if the fascists let you), but are yelling from the rooftops that it's pointless and other people shouldn't either. And throughout all that, you call GH feckless. If this were Nazi Germany, you'd be one of those countless ignominious people who voted for the DNVP and then cowered at home while brownshirts came to vandalize their neighbors' shop. I mean, how much worse can it really get? Your Aryan a white cis male after all. Can you literally not read? I didn’t say any of that shit. I literally asked you what your suggestion was and you said "well, the only proven thing that solved fascism in the past" which was WW2. Everything else has just been shooting other peoples' suggestions down or wondering whether American voters or American politicians are more to blame for the current predicament. On February 20 2025 08:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 08:15 Acrofales wrote:On February 20 2025 08:11 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 08:07 Acrofales wrote:On February 20 2025 07:34 KwarK wrote:On February 20 2025 06:01 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 23:38 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 23:07 Acrofales wrote:On February 19 2025 22:56 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2025 22:52 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
I think we're all open to suggestions here, so spitball with us! What do you think should be done to halt Trump's autocratic takeover? There was an entire historical period in which vast amounts of money was spent on both the theory and the practical testing and application of tools to deal with fascist states. Everybody, including you, knows what works against fascists once they wield the powers of a state. So you think we're in 1939-stage fascism? I don't think you've had your Night of the Long Knives yet. At the very least you should try to set your Reichstag on fire first, right? They’re control big tech. They control the apps people use for communication. They control popular media. They’ve stacked the courts and are simply ignoring court orders they don’t like. They’ve removed all oversight and are concentrating executive power which they’ve also removed all restrictions on. They’ve had everyone wiretapped for decades. They’ve had Fox News on constantly in every army barracks for decades. We lost. The reason it was so important to vote Democrat in November was to avoid handing them the keys to the kingdom. But people were too morally pure to vote against the takeover and now those same people are going “what if we just tell the king no” as if the king gives a shit what they think. They wasted their shot. So let me get this straight, your choices were: 1. Vote Democrats 2. Inevitable Fascism and pray Mexico invades and saves your country. You tried (1) and failed so there is now literally nothing more for you to do. Oh well, better hope Mexico can help. If voting democrats once every few years can't stop fascism, nothing outside of WW3 can. It seems that for someone as smart as you are, that is an incredibly dumb take. I mean if you ignore literally all the other posts then sure, you could take my meaning to be giving up. But I was very clear that there were alternatives in other posts. It’ll take more than going to DC in a vagina hat though. Yeah, so you, personally are giving up. You might be secretly hoping that someone else uses their second amendment rights, but you are personally not only not going to exercise your first amendment right (other than to maybe go and vote for the democrats if the fascists let you), but are yelling from the rooftops that it's pointless and other people shouldn't either. And throughout all that, you call GH feckless. If this were Nazi Germany, you'd be one of those countless ignominious people who voted for the DNVP and then cowered at home while brownshirts came to vandalize their neighbors' shop. I mean, how much worse can it really get? Your Aryan a white cis male after all. Can you literally not read? I didn’t say any of that shit. I literally asked you what your suggestion was and you said "well, the only proven thing that solved fascism in the past" which was WW2. Everything else has just been shooting other peoples' suggestions down or wondering whether American voters or American politicians are more to blame for the current predicament. You're failing to distinguish between my broader commentary on the nature of fascism and my personal choices to act within the situation I find myself in. I'll try to make it simpler for you. From a broad political theory perspective my opinion is that peaceful protest isn't likely to work at this point. Fascism loves violence, it loves having an enemy, and an internal enemy is just as good as an external. The last words of the peaceful protesters will be "excuse me but you're actually not allowed to do this". Similarly voting them out isn't going to work. It basically didn't work in 2020 but key individuals required to overturn the election for Trump failed to do so. They've spent years fixing that, there is no world in which Trump makes a phone call demanding Georgia find more votes and they don't find them. So, with that said, how does it end? The same way all fascist societies end. Fascism is inherently self destructive, violence is oxygen to it, it will fight and fight and when it runs out of enemies it will make more until it destroys itself. In practical terms we're looking at civil war, imperialist invasions, or more likely, both. Certainly it's a bad time to be a non nuclear Mexico. The next few decades are not going to be good for the world. My suggestions for individuals would be to work out where they fit within that and how they and their family survive. Whether that be emigration, arming themselves, insulating themselves against state power by ceasing to use any compromised communication, or other direct action. I have made my own plans which I am not interested in discussing with you. They do not involve twirling a baton though. Your mistake is in assuming that my contempt for the vagina hat wearing "resist" approach makes me compliant. I am more radical, not less radical, than you. On February 20 2025 10:05 Mohdoo wrote:
I think during Trump's first term, his crew dug around to determine the US military's contingency plans and wargame scenarios relating to a dictatorship taking over the federal government. We know the military uses game theory stuff for contingencies and whatnot, so we can infer a lot based on what Trump has done.
The US military is designed to be entirely subservient to our federal government but I think WW2 and the cold war each individually justified the US military designing contingency plans for thwarting a fascist dictatorship taking over the federal government. A military coup would be enormously harmful to the country regardless of how or why it was done, so I think their contingency plans only trigger in the absolute most dire of circumstances. I think Trump and his team determined the specific interlocks that would trigger a military coup and planned takeover to maneuver around those interlocks. For example, I think Trump ordering the military to kill all democrat senators and congresspeople would trigger some kind of coup protocol.
I think that’s why project 2025 was crafted so carefully and also openly. During Trump's first term, they collected all the information they needed to design the perfect fascist takeover without needing to move slowly or carefully to prevent accidentally triggering a military coup. Without the need for a slow and steady approach, they could design the entire thing ahead of time. And by broadcasting the whole thing somewhat openly, rather than operating in the shadows, it prevented it from appearing to be a credible threat. This allowed them to operate openly and muster all the logistics and manpower necessary to have all the pieces in all the right places to pull it off.
Strictly speaking, the US government becoming a dictatorship does not technically justify a full-ass military coup. The country could still maintain its integrity and military interests without a coup. And the dictatorship would not necessarily last, so a coup could do more harm than good if it was done in anything other than the most dire of circumstances. I think Trump's government plans to conduct this takeover as broadly as they can while carefully ensuring they never step over the red lines that would trigger a military coup. On February 20 2025 22:08 Uldridge wrote:
I think calling out someone is a Nazi makes no sense. You won't change anything about the situation.
I think understanding why society creates Nazis is way more productive and then you can tackle that problem head on.
Maybe a society needs a % of Nazis, so that we can stay on our toes? Maybe Nazism is something inherently (socio)biological for people with certain genetics. Who the fuck knows. Should there be a place for Nazis in our society? I sure don't want any, but Nazis seem to think they deserve to be here all the same and why not, they're humans after all.
I think this is a very difficult ethical question to tackle. It's basically the same like the integration problem with immigrants. It's needs such a careful way of setting up that, if you're not careful, you end up with segregated community after community that just doesn't work with you anymore (and vica versa) because they've entrenched themselves in their culture, basically importing their country into yours. That only causes friction for many people.
Most of these kinds of posts look like Reddit to me. They're not really about anything, many of them border on conspiracy theories, or are people due to their background with no stake in the actual issues posting superficially - which I can empathize with because yes US politics is certainly more intriguing than many parochial things around the world - but the results of that show it's not fruitful. In other words, the issue is not "You're just saying this because someone called you a fascist, and then you got mad, which proves you're a fascist, which also demonstrates the posting you're criticizing was actually extremely hinged the whole time so deal with it." From my vantage point the dogshit threads are multiplying, and the proposal is what about having a semblance of rules in General again and containing the fascism cope thread to a single place which isn't US Politics Mega. That's the feedback.
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