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On September 30 2010 13:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
My ideas for Stalemate situations:
1. Add an "Offer Stalemate" button. You can offer a total of 3 stalemates (like Game Pauses) per match. Once all three are declined, you can't offer anymore. You can only accept a stalemate from your opponent, leave the game and take a loss, or outlast your opponent for the win.
2. If a Stalemate Offer is accepted, both players win 0 points and lose 0 points. In other words, no change is made to their scores. That way, players won't be spamming stalemates to gain points, and they'll realize that they have something to gain from accepting a stalemate, rather than possibly losing a "who will quit first" match and losing points.
3. As far as stalemates appearing on records is concerned, I do think that that they should appear as draws (W-L-D, rather than just a W-L record), although I also would recommend simply NOT having that stalemate show up in the record at all (if Blizzard just wanted to keep a simple W-L record, since it's neither a Win nor a Loss). Of course, SC1 had a W-L-D record, so I don't see why SC2 can't...
U dont understand that the dicks who lost and lift off building will never agree to a stalemate
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If terran fly away cant you just make flying units and kill them?
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famous blizzard words
"there is no time line for this..."
pretty lame, basically just saying, yeah we know stalemates happen, yeah they suck, no idea when we'll be fixing this
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How about this.
- Terran buildings cant fly over anything but ground. (If you told it to land somewhere it'll fly there, islands for example.)
- Flying terran buildings should be able to be attacked by ground units. Just like SCVs can repair things in the air.
Problem solved?
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Resurrecting an old thread since I had an idea about resolving stalemates. I was thinking about this today and came up with a possible solution (not sure if suggested before)
- Game will enter a stalemate resolution period after say 2-3 game minutes of no mining from either player.
- The Stalemate resolution will last 10-20 game minutes with a counter ticking down.Objective during this is to eliminate the other player.
- If after this timer expires and both players' buildings are left then both players get a loss (not draw). Points will be deducted depending on their MMR i.e. more favoured player gets docked more points.
- Timers get reset if either player mines for 1 game minute continuously.
Here is what this will accomplish.
- The enter and exit thresholds ensure that such a system doesn't kick in too early or exit too early.
- Loss for both means that there will be an effort (esp more favoured player) from both players to try and finish the game.
- Limited time means that player with better micro/tactics or one with more building hitpoints per opponent dps wins.
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I would say that the main solution for the terran-lift stalemate would simply be to make any lifted off buildings exempt from the loss triggers, meaning that if the terran has no buildings on the ground, they lose.
Also for other stalemates, a more complex trigger could be used so that if both players lack the ability to produce or use units which attack ground, then it is a draw.
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On November 21 2010 15:59 WickedBit wrote:
Resurrecting an old thread since I had an idea about resolving stalemates. I was thinking about this today and came up with a possible solution (not sure if suggested before)
- Game will enter a stalemate resolution period after say 2-3 game minutes of no mining from either player.
- The Stalemate resolution will last 10-20 game minutes with a counter ticking down.Objective during this is to eliminate the other player.
- If after this timer expires and both players' buildings are left then both players get a loss (not draw). Points will be deducted depending on their MMR i.e. more favoured player gets docked more points.
- Timers get reset if either player mines for 1 game minute continuously.
Here is what this will accomplish.
- The enter and exit thresholds ensure that such a system doesn't kick in too early or exit too early.
- Loss for both means that there will be an effort (esp more favoured player) from both players to try and finish the game.
- Limited time means that player with better micro/tactics or one with more building hitpoints per opponent dps wins.
This is the best idea in this thread by far. 20 minutes is way too long, but 10 minutes sounds good. 10 minutes where you must kill the opponent or lose. Nice.
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Why is it that I read a comment about the Terran buildings floating to the corners and thought of the admin 'slap' from CS? Well at least they understand that there are stalemates in the games.
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On November 21 2010 16:12 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 15:59 WickedBit wrote:
Resurrecting an old thread since I had an idea about resolving stalemates. I was thinking about this today and came up with a possible solution (not sure if suggested before)
- Game will enter a stalemate resolution period after say 2-3 game minutes of no mining from either player.
- The Stalemate resolution will last 10-20 game minutes with a counter ticking down.Objective during this is to eliminate the other player.
- If after this timer expires and both players' buildings are left then both players get a loss (not draw). Points will be deducted depending on their MMR i.e. more favoured player gets docked more points.
- Timers get reset if either player mines for 1 game minute continuously.
Here is what this will accomplish.
- The enter and exit thresholds ensure that such a system doesn't kick in too early or exit too early.
- Loss for both means that there will be an effort (esp more favoured player) from both players to try and finish the game.
- Limited time means that player with better micro/tactics or one with more building hitpoints per opponent dps wins. This is the best idea in this thread by far. 20 minutes is way too long, but 10 minutes sounds good. 10 minutes where you must kill the opponent or lose. Nice.
what if you have a probe a pylon and a cannon left(no nexus), and all they have are buildings that can't lift off and you are able to attack(so no hidden buildings on an island somewhere).. you will win that game, but you won't win in 10 or maybe even 20 minutes.. if they have tons of buildings)
to be fair, I would just leave if I had the probe so I don't really care, Im not going to sit there and auto attack their buildings with my probe for that long
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On November 21 2010 16:08 CortoMontez wrote:
I would say that the main solution for the terran-lift stalemate would simply be to make any lifted off buildings exempt from the loss triggers, meaning that if the terran has no buildings on the ground, they lose.
Also for other stalemates, a more complex trigger could be used so that if both players lack the ability to produce or use units which attack ground, then it is a draw.
How about you have something that actually kills flying buildings.
Flying buildings is what makes terran terran and its been like that since bw. Offer draw is the only available solution.
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when a T has flying buildings only a timer comes up similar to the reveal one w/ auto loss in 2 minutes unless you land
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On November 21 2010 16:16 BraveGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 16:12 KevinIX wrote:On November 21 2010 15:59 WickedBit wrote:
Resurrecting an old thread since I had an idea about resolving stalemates. I was thinking about this today and came up with a possible solution (not sure if suggested before)
- Game will enter a stalemate resolution period after say 2-3 game minutes of no mining from either player.
- The Stalemate resolution will last 10-20 game minutes with a counter ticking down.Objective during this is to eliminate the other player.
- If after this timer expires and both players' buildings are left then both players get a loss (not draw). Points will be deducted depending on their MMR i.e. more favoured player gets docked more points.
- Timers get reset if either player mines for 1 game minute continuously.
Here is what this will accomplish.
- The enter and exit thresholds ensure that such a system doesn't kick in too early or exit too early.
- Loss for both means that there will be an effort (esp more favoured player) from both players to try and finish the game.
- Limited time means that player with better micro/tactics or one with more building hitpoints per opponent dps wins. This is the best idea in this thread by far. 20 minutes is way too long, but 10 minutes sounds good. 10 minutes where you must kill the opponent or lose. Nice. what if you have a probe a pylon and a cannon left(no nexus), and all they have are buildings that can't lift off and you are able to attack(so no hidden buildings on an island somewhere).. you will win that game, but you won't win in 10 or maybe even 20 minutes.. if they have tons of buildings) to be fair, I would just leave if I had the probe so I don't really care, Im not going to sit there and auto attack their buildings with my probe for that long
Then you both deserve to lose.
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Simple solution (or not): when both sides have not spent any time mining for 10 minutes, both players receive a tie. I can only see a stalemate happening if both sides aren't mining, otherwise one would eventually win. Also, this could be combined with if you are revealed and your opponent isn't and you both cannot mine for some time then both would receive a draw. I think there are times when both sides might not be mining but both sides also have an army that are protecting their final structures. Something along those lines, but more refined and has more "if" scenarios would be fine I think.
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I know this is an unpopular opinion, and im sorry, but i cannot believe Blizzard is actually going to change the game because people cant avoid losing to lift. For all the "SC2 teaches me how to be a better player and avoid mistakes in the future etc etc" no one can learn to build an air unit or not base trade with Terrans?
Maybe ill start a website that recognizes and honors Terran lift wins even though they will no longer count on bnet. Hurry up, somebody register www.theartofterranlift-wins.com so these players who refuse to learn that terran can lift can be known wide and far as unable to create a single flying unit.
I know its juvenile, but Terran lifting to win is a tradition that should never ever die.
I cant believe people let this happen so much that Blizzard now has to change what has been the norm for over a decade just to accommodate them. I cant help but feel ashamed for them.
EDIT: Im sorry but i have to go further with this, although i know very well that no one will ever change their mind who has already made up their mind. For over a decade, the conditions of winning a 1v1 ladder game have been to destroy all of your opponents buildings. No one will say they didnt know that. It is a known fact. It is also known that Terrans can lift off their buildings and float them around. It is also a known fact that Terrans do this sometimes as a way to escape a loss, like an animal chewing off its own leg to escape a trap. Every single one of those facts are known to be true. To change the game now is changing the win conditions to suit those who are unskilled. I consider that a major failure on Blizzards part to change the game tradition down to the core deciding factor (to destroy all of your opponents buildings) just to keep quiet those who are well aware of those facts that are listed above, yet do nothing in their play to accommodate it. I know i must seem like im making a mountain out of a molehill here, and i am sure i will get flamed. But i consider it an insult that Blizzard would change what has been a highly characterized tradition in gameplay that has existed for that long, just to keep new players from having to learn how to play the game correctly. And to those players who are so upset i ask this one question... have you ever felt how great it is to have a Terran think he is going to get away with a lift-win on you and you thought ahead and built 1 single air unit and ruin his entire day by being one seemingly unimaginable step ahead of him? Its ten times better than some horrible draw mechanic giving you a free non-loss.
OK ok rant is over.
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There are more stalemate options than terran lift oft with no anti air. It may be the most common, but if a change is made to draws it needs to be ambiguous of race.
Just make there be a draw button, and a draw nets a small loss or no effect. What percentage of games actually end in a draw?
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On September 30 2010 13:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
My ideas for Stalemate situations:
1. Add an "Offer Stalemate" button. You can offer a total of 3 stalemates (like Game Pauses) per match. Once all three are declined, you can't offer anymore. You can only accept a stalemate from your opponent, leave the game and take a loss, or outlast your opponent for the win.
2. If a Stalemate Offer is accepted, both players win 0 points and lose 0 points. In other words, no change is made to their scores. That way, players won't be spamming stalemates to gain points, and they'll realize that they have something to gain from accepting a stalemate, rather than possibly losing a "who will quit first" match and losing points.
3. As far as stalemates appearing on records is concerned, I do think that that they should appear as draws (W-L-D, rather than just a W-L record), although I also would recommend simply NOT having that stalemate show up in the record at all (if Blizzard just wanted to keep a simple W-L record, since it's neither a Win nor a Loss). Of course, SC1 had a W-L-D record, so I don't see why SC2 can't...
Best idea of the day and the only one that seems viable. There's no real way to scam. Points out of this IdeA if implemented
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On November 21 2010 16:50 Mellotron wrote:I know this is an unpopular opinion, and im sorry, but i cannot believe Blizzard is actually going to change the game because people cant avoid losing to lift. For all the "SC2 teaches me how to be a better player and avoid mistakes in the future etc etc" no one can learn to build an air unit or not base trade with Terrans? Maybe ill start a website that recognizes and honors Terran lift wins even though they will no longer count on bnet. Hurry up, somebody register www.theartofterranlift-wins.com so these players who refuse to learn that terran can lift can be known wide and far as unable to create a single flying unit. I know its juvenile, but Terran lifting to win is a tradition that should never ever die. I cant believe people let this happen so much that Blizzard now has to change what has been the norm for over a decade just to accommodate them. I cant help but feel ashamed for them. EDIT: Im sorry but i have to go further with this, although i know very well that no one will ever change their mind who has already made up their mind. For over a decade, the conditions of winning a 1v1 ladder game have been to destroy all of your opponents buildings. No one will say they didnt know that. It is a known fact. It is also known that Terrans can lift off their buildings and float them around. It is also a known fact that Terrans do this sometimes as a way to escape a loss, like an animal chewing off its own leg to escape a trap. Every single one of those facts are known to be true. To change the game now is changing the win conditions to suit those who are unskilled. I consider that a major failure on Blizzards part to change the game tradition down to the core deciding factor (to destroy all of your opponents buildings) just to keep quiet those who are well aware of those facts that are listed above, yet do nothing in their play to accommodate it. I know i must seem like im making a mountain out of a molehill here, and i am sure i will get flamed. But i consider it an insult that Blizzard would change what has been a highly characterized tradition in gameplay that has existed for that long, just to keep new players from having to learn how to play the game correctly. And to those players who are so upset i ask this one question... have you ever felt how great it is to have a Terran think he is going to get away with a lift-win on you and you thought ahead and built 1 single air unit and ruin his entire day by being one seemingly unimaginable step ahead of him? Its ten times better than some horrible draw mechanic giving you a free non-loss. OK ok rant is over.
So how is Terran supposed to win after lifting off his last building and floating into a corner? You're forgetting that even though they didn't wipe out your last building, you didn't wipe out all of their buildings either. And you have no way to kill them.
This isn't just about the non-terran being unable to win. Neither side is able to win. That's what makes it a stalemate. It makes sense that they'd address this.
The best way would be to just leave it up to the players and have an "offer stalemate" button that turns on after a game's been going on for over 45 minutes or something. If both players agree to it, the game ends and no points are gained or lost.
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On September 30 2010 13:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
My ideas for Stalemate situations:
1. Add an "Offer Stalemate" button. You can offer a total of 3 stalemates (like Game Pauses) per match. Once all three are declined, you can't offer anymore. You can only accept a stalemate from your opponent, leave the game and take a loss, or outlast your opponent for the win.
2. If a Stalemate Offer is accepted, both players win 0 points and lose 0 points. In other words, no change is made to their scores. That way, players won't be spamming stalemates to gain points, and they'll realize that they have something to gain from accepting a stalemate, rather than possibly losing a "who will quit first" match and losing points.
3. As far as stalemates appearing on records is concerned, I do think that that they should appear as draws (W-L-D, rather than just a W-L record), although I also would recommend simply NOT having that stalemate show up in the record at all (if Blizzard just wanted to keep a simple W-L record, since it's neither a Win nor a Loss). Of course, SC1 had a W-L-D record, so I don't see why SC2 can't...
What if a stalemate has occurred and player 1 decides to be a dick and does not accept the draw. Now player 2 must take the loss when its really a draw. Also if two friends meet on the ladder and decide to trigger a stale mate in order to keep their ladder ranking high, next you know a community of friends will trigger stale mates obscuring the true ladder results. Next we have the hacker that will find a way of triggering a stale mate against the will of the other player.
Stalemate is a hard thing indeed to get right so blizzard should take as much time as needed to get it right
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On September 30 2010 13:24 mierin wrote:
Stalemates are just a part of the game. One of the most perfect stalemates I've ever seen is MasterAsia vs. TT1.
Great example! Oh wait..... it wasn't a stalemate.
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On November 21 2010 18:07 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 16:50 Mellotron wrote:I know this is an unpopular opinion, and im sorry, but i cannot believe Blizzard is actually going to change the game because people cant avoid losing to lift. For all the "SC2 teaches me how to be a better player and avoid mistakes in the future etc etc" no one can learn to build an air unit or not base trade with Terrans? Maybe ill start a website that recognizes and honors Terran lift wins even though they will no longer count on bnet. Hurry up, somebody register www.theartofterranlift-wins.com so these players who refuse to learn that terran can lift can be known wide and far as unable to create a single flying unit. I know its juvenile, but Terran lifting to win is a tradition that should never ever die. I cant believe people let this happen so much that Blizzard now has to change what has been the norm for over a decade just to accommodate them. I cant help but feel ashamed for them. EDIT: Im sorry but i have to go further with this, although i know very well that no one will ever change their mind who has already made up their mind. For over a decade, the conditions of winning a 1v1 ladder game have been to destroy all of your opponents buildings. No one will say they didnt know that. It is a known fact. It is also known that Terrans can lift off their buildings and float them around. It is also a known fact that Terrans do this sometimes as a way to escape a loss, like an animal chewing off its own leg to escape a trap. Every single one of those facts are known to be true. To change the game now is changing the win conditions to suit those who are unskilled. I consider that a major failure on Blizzards part to change the game tradition down to the core deciding factor (to destroy all of your opponents buildings) just to keep quiet those who are well aware of those facts that are listed above, yet do nothing in their play to accommodate it. I know i must seem like im making a mountain out of a molehill here, and i am sure i will get flamed. But i consider it an insult that Blizzard would change what has been a highly characterized tradition in gameplay that has existed for that long, just to keep new players from having to learn how to play the game correctly. And to those players who are so upset i ask this one question... have you ever felt how great it is to have a Terran think he is going to get away with a lift-win on you and you thought ahead and built 1 single air unit and ruin his entire day by being one seemingly unimaginable step ahead of him? Its ten times better than some horrible draw mechanic giving you a free non-loss. OK ok rant is over. So how is Terran supposed to win after lifting off his last building and floating into a corner? You're forgetting that even though they didn't wipe out your last building, you didn't wipe out all of their buildings either. And you have no way to kill them. This isn't just about the non-terran being unable to win. Neither side is able to win. That's what makes it a stalemate. It makes sense that they'd address this. The best way would be to just leave it up to the players and have an "offer stalemate" button that turns on after a game's been going on for over 45 minutes or something. If both players agree to it, the game ends and no points are gained or lost.
Did you just defend the players that lift off and float their buildings to a corner to avoid losing? Makes me wonder what you do in a baserace.
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EPT
