|
Canada10923 Posts
On November 14 2010 23:01 Gamjadori wrote:I've been around TL since 2003, and I remember there being nothing but hate for KeSPA during those past 7 years up until just recently. There was always minimal support for KeSPA in the foreign community as far as I could tell, and I don't see what has happened in the past year that could have changed that. If people have forgotten what TL used to think about KeSPA, go back and read this thread (about GOM Classic S4 being canceled due to KeSPA); http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101934Here's a selection of post from the first few pages; Show nested quote +On September 14 2009 17:24 Chrispy wrote: Well then.
I think I speak for the entirety of Foreign Broodwar fans when I say...
Fuck you, Kespa! Show nested quote +On September 14 2009 18:04 SpiritWolf wrote:On September 14 2009 17:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 14 2009 17:40 SpiritWolf wrote: The blacklisting of gom really doesn't surprise me. Gom is supported by blizzard. Kespa doesn't want blizzard to encroach on their market so they are discouraging players from doing gom. When SC2 comes out kespa will get owned and back down or gom will become the main source for sc2. GOM decided not to cooperate with Kepsa before Blizzard even got involved from what I'm aware. Blizzard supported GOM in season 3, after a lot of teams decided not to participate. True, but before gom wasnt large enough to be a real threat. With blizzards backing and starcraft 2 on the horizon gom has the potential to expand massively. kespa is putting alot of pressure on teams to not compete in gom in order to kill it before it can hurt their korean esports monopoly. Show nested quote +On September 14 2009 18:33 Alethios wrote: Fuck KeSPA. I haven't heard anything positive about this idiots in so long. Seems every time I look they're disqualifying another gamer for coughing too loudly.
I don't care whether or not they're fighting to keep themselves relevant or not. Companies have the right to increase their profit margins by dubious practices, and we have the right not to buy their products. Seriously, fuck them.
Blizzard should release a SC patch specifically aimed to fuck these wankers. Show nested quote +On September 14 2009 18:38 fearus wrote: Blizzard should flex its legal muscele against Kespa. Show nested quote +On September 14 2009 18:51 Matoo- wrote:On September 14 2009 18:29 ZeitgeistMovie wrote: Look, no one is in the "wrong" here. All parties are fighting for their interests. I wish people would stop being ignorant fools and stop blaming KeSPA. Every esthablishment will fight to keep themselves relevant. Nothing one is to blame here, maybe except the system because this is how the system works. This is just business/politics, and innocent people will suffer along the way. That's just the reality of it all. No one has all the information on the matter so picking sides is just jumping the gun and really useless. Just see how things play out and hope Esports survive in Korea, and grow everywhere else. The reason why many people hate KeSPA is that, beyond being just another greedy corporation, it was supposed to be promoting korean e-sports in general, and doing stuff like helping out new leagues, defending players' rights etc - but in reality KeSPA is doing the exact opposite. These quotes might be out if context, but still this seemed to be the general opinion about KeSPA a little over a year ago. While this may not be relevant to the current discussion, I'm just wondering if people could point out what's changed about KeSPA now. It' still the same organization that people used to hate. Have people forgotten all their their past "deeds"? Before SC2, KeSPA was the devil, has anything happened to change that? Sure, some might not like Blizzard, but I don't so how KeSPA was ever any better. I'm not trying to argue that KeSPA is good or bad, I'm just curious as to WHY people's opinion have swung.
Although I haven't been around that long, I also remember how hated Kespa was even in Season 2 and 3 of Gomtv. After GOMTV Season 3 was canceled, you could scarcely find a Kespa supporter on TL it seemed. But somehow in this last year, Blizzard has become the devil and Kespa this irreplaceable, untouchable organization (never mind the crucial role Boxer and many of the players had in building up esports, building interest ie a market that companies would even be interested in investing.)
I've found the BW debates rather frustrating that all Kespa's past injustices seem to have been forgotten and that Blizzard is assumed to be wanting to shut down BW despite little evidence to support the assumption. (Except for the oft heard "why would they not?" It also seems the Kespa defenders, although a few are older TL posters, most seem to have joined in the last year or in the last 6 months.
I also find it interesting how the foreign community is always trying to downplay the Korean's outrage of Kespa. Calling naysayers "not the real fans" or from the BW thread "they've been spoiled for too long. They don't know what Kespa has done for them." Seems to me that many Koreans have weighed what Kespa has done and found Kespa wanting. Who are we to listen to if not the Koreans in their own country about their own organization?
I, for one am glad that Kespa's dirty laundry is being hung out. Even if every item on the list isn't hundred percent accurate, the sum total is pretty damning.
|
On November 15 2010 16:13 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 15:58 MassAirUnits wrote:On November 15 2010 15:28 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 15:16 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 15:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:04 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote: Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties. I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA. No but the fact that you cant read it before purchase in many countries voids it in its entirety in those countries. Sorry for being clumsy. Why can you not read it before purchase? It is available online and the box tells you where to go to see it online... it even says you need a bnet account and an active internet connection. You cant do that it has to be on the product you cant say the rules were posted in the vorgon halls for 50 years on the internet. At least in this country in yours maybe not. Edit if you purchase it online then you have a point. I would like to see a box of medication in your country if such things have to be visible on the outside of the box... because here in america we can have pages of information/warnings/other stuff that is required, and there aint no way in hell you are fitting that on the outside of a box. I would also like to see the rule that says the entirety of the agreement has to be on the product. I have just gone onto blizzards online website and at no point does it offer you the oppotunity to read the EULA prior to purchaseand thats ONLINE. Also many courts will argue that many pages of legalese containing much content that contravenes local laws to be about as binding as toilet paper. ? http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/sc2eula.htmlSays that right on the top of my SC2 box. That is a US one there is no link on the EU UK online store from where you can purchase a game when you should be able to view it to a EULA. Looking at the the EU site i can only find a "terms of use" not an EULA. Since the terms of use actually refers to the EULA in its text its quite laughable really. Also reading its terms on privacy at contravenes UK data protection law you have to give the option of opting out of sharing private information with third parties and they dont do that. Why are you looking at the online store? The online store means you are entering a direct contract with blizzard, so if you disagree with the terms of use/EULA there is a direct break in the sale and you can easily get a refund, there is a reason they include this in the EULA.
Also, I read the terms and there are lots of options for opting out.
"Blizzard allows you to control the way that we use personal identifying information that we might obtain. At the time you provide personal information, Blizzard may give you the option of declining any future offers or information about new products, promotions, or services. In addition, many of the "mailings" Blizzard may send you, such as newsletters, have procedures within them to cancel the receipt of any future mailings. Lastly, you may be given the opportunity to "opt-out" of certain features or functionality (e.g. Real ID). "
and there are many other scenarios mentioned therein that also contain opportunities to opt out.
Stop making shit up!
|
On November 14 2010 14:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:isn't this actually a good argument though?
please do not use such a stupid argument. im also gonna try to ignore that stupid comment that tries to imply a soccer ball maufacturer has any kind of right to the sport. that would be the same thing as saying keyboard manufacturers have the right to all the games that is played with them. the soccer ball is only a tool to play the game. just like a controller is used to play a video game.
video games are not the same thing as professional sports. a game like soccer/football/basketball/etc can not be traced back to any individual or group of individuals. those sports have a LONG history and there has been different variations of them in the course of that history from continent to continent.
starcraft on the other hand has a very clear and obvious developer and maker. not only that but its a electronic piece of entertainment, the same as a movie or console game. they can decide to do w/e they want to do with the game they made. its there legal right to do so. they could have even charged us $$ each month to play on there servers but luckily they didnt because that obviously would have been bad for them.
so just stop comparing a video game to a real life sport like soccer/football/baseball/etc. its getting so damn ridiculous on these forums and it has to stop. i can understand that its compared to poker/chess, but when you compare it to real life sports then that is where a line should be drawn imo.
|
On November 14 2010 14:53 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 14:48 doothegee wrote: Koreans love to hate on anything that is Korean (e.g. Kespa) and love to worship anything that's foreign (Blizzard). I wouldn't be too surprised by any of this. I completely disagree. I believe Korea is probably one of the fervent, nationalistic cultures in the world.
I would maybe put Japan first
|
I think the main problem of KeSPA is that their main argument is based on "StarCraft is sport and therefor public property" is a little in contradiction with their business model of "controlling everything".
While they build up the arguably most succesful E-Sport business so far, if they piss off the fans, the players (man i still feel bad for Jaedong somehow) und tournament organizers one can question what their real purpose is. If they would act more like a association which helps the above mentioned "real" pillars of E-Sports and less like a dictature the whole discussion would be complete different.
But at the end of the day, I also think that Blizzard - as a company - should have less to say in such culture important things. There must be some sort of fair agreement that Blizzards will get paid or gets some free advertisement, but I rather won't have them any decission making rights. I support their lawsuit only because the counterpart (KeSPA) seems to be more damaging then useful.
|
Really nice read! It was entertaining and it tells a lot about KESPA but still I cannot choose side. They both act like kids but yeah nice post
|
On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote:SO You think that if a consumer doesnt agree with a EULA or if the EULA contravenes their local laws they arent entitled to a refund?
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal.
|
On November 15 2010 16:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 16:13 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:58 MassAirUnits wrote:On November 15 2010 15:28 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 15:16 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 15:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:04 FrostOtter wrote:On November 15 2010 15:02 AlBundy wrote: Vimsey what are you trying to say? I'm trying to follow that thread but you seem obsessed with UK laws which seem totally irrelevant in a case involving US and KR parties. I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA. No but the fact that you cant read it before purchase in many countries voids it in its entirety in those countries. Sorry for being clumsy. Why can you not read it before purchase? It is available online and the box tells you where to go to see it online... it even says you need a bnet account and an active internet connection. You cant do that it has to be on the product you cant say the rules were posted in the vorgon halls for 50 years on the internet. At least in this country in yours maybe not. Edit if you purchase it online then you have a point. I would like to see a box of medication in your country if such things have to be visible on the outside of the box... because here in america we can have pages of information/warnings/other stuff that is required, and there aint no way in hell you are fitting that on the outside of a box. I would also like to see the rule that says the entirety of the agreement has to be on the product. I have just gone onto blizzards online website and at no point does it offer you the oppotunity to read the EULA prior to purchaseand thats ONLINE. Also many courts will argue that many pages of legalese containing much content that contravenes local laws to be about as binding as toilet paper. ? http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/sc2eula.htmlSays that right on the top of my SC2 box. That is a US one there is no link on the EU UK online store from where you can purchase a game when you should be able to view it to a EULA. Looking at the the EU site i can only find a "terms of use" not an EULA. Since the terms of use actually refers to the EULA in its text its quite laughable really. Also reading its terms on privacy at contravenes UK data protection law you have to give the option of opting out of sharing private information with third parties and they dont do that. Why are you looking at the online store? The online store means you are entering a direct contract with blizzard, so if you disagree with the terms of use/EULA there is a direct break in the sale and you can easily get a refund, there is a reason they include this in the EULA. Also, I read the terms and there are lots of options for opting out. "Blizzard allows you to control the way that we use personal identifying information that we might obtain. At the time you provide personal information, Blizzard may give you the option of declining any future offers or information about new products, promotions, or services. In addition, many of the "mailings" Blizzard may send you, such as newsletters, have procedures within them to cancel the receipt of any future mailings. Lastly, you may be given the opportunity to "opt-out" of certain features or functionality (e.g. Real ID). " and there are many other scenarios mentioned therein that also contain opportunities to opt out. Stop making shit up! Because it had been stated that the EULA is there to read when it isnt. Also "As a general rule, Blizzard will not forward your information to a third party without your permission. However, we may divulge this data to third party vendors in response to a product order or to add you to a vendor’s commercial bulletin circulation list. In some cases, we can also disclose this information if our License Agreements or Terms of Service have been violated or if, in all good faith, we judge it is legally justified
As with any business, your personal information is also an asset of Blizzard and will become part of our normal business records. As such, in the event of a merger, acquisition, reorganization, bank-ruptcy, or other similar event, your personal information may be transferred to Blizzard 's successor or assignee."
This is from the Blizzard privacy policy in the EULA, it contravenes the UK data protection act and yet they say it applies to the UK and show me where I can "opt out" of this option. This is not making shit up, Ta.
|
On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote:SO You think that if a consumer doesnt agree with a EULA or if the EULA contravenes their local laws they arent entitled to a refund?
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline.
Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished
|
On November 15 2010 20:12 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 16:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 16:13 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:58 MassAirUnits wrote:On November 15 2010 15:28 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 15:16 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 15:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 15:04 FrostOtter wrote: [quote] I think he is clumsily (there is no drinking age in the UK, after all) attempting to say that US law does not apply in other countries, although he is beating around the bush and ignoring that EULAs will often say that any sections not applicable under local law do not void the entirety of the EULA. No but the fact that you cant read it before purchase in many countries voids it in its entirety in those countries. Sorry for being clumsy. Why can you not read it before purchase? It is available online and the box tells you where to go to see it online... it even says you need a bnet account and an active internet connection. You cant do that it has to be on the product you cant say the rules were posted in the vorgon halls for 50 years on the internet. At least in this country in yours maybe not. Edit if you purchase it online then you have a point. I would like to see a box of medication in your country if such things have to be visible on the outside of the box... because here in america we can have pages of information/warnings/other stuff that is required, and there aint no way in hell you are fitting that on the outside of a box. I would also like to see the rule that says the entirety of the agreement has to be on the product. I have just gone onto blizzards online website and at no point does it offer you the oppotunity to read the EULA prior to purchaseand thats ONLINE. Also many courts will argue that many pages of legalese containing much content that contravenes local laws to be about as binding as toilet paper. ? http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/sc2eula.htmlSays that right on the top of my SC2 box. That is a US one there is no link on the EU UK online store from where you can purchase a game when you should be able to view it to a EULA. Looking at the the EU site i can only find a "terms of use" not an EULA. Since the terms of use actually refers to the EULA in its text its quite laughable really. Also reading its terms on privacy at contravenes UK data protection law you have to give the option of opting out of sharing private information with third parties and they dont do that. Why are you looking at the online store? The online store means you are entering a direct contract with blizzard, so if you disagree with the terms of use/EULA there is a direct break in the sale and you can easily get a refund, there is a reason they include this in the EULA. Also, I read the terms and there are lots of options for opting out. "Blizzard allows you to control the way that we use personal identifying information that we might obtain. At the time you provide personal information, Blizzard may give you the option of declining any future offers or information about new products, promotions, or services. In addition, many of the "mailings" Blizzard may send you, such as newsletters, have procedures within them to cancel the receipt of any future mailings. Lastly, you may be given the opportunity to "opt-out" of certain features or functionality (e.g. Real ID). " and there are many other scenarios mentioned therein that also contain opportunities to opt out. Stop making shit up! Because it had been stated that the EULA is there to read when it isnt. Also "As a general rule, Blizzard will not forward your information to a third party without your permission. However, we may divulge this data to third party vendors in response to a product order or to add you to a vendor’s commercial bulletin circulation list. In some cases, we can also disclose this information if our License Agreements or Terms of Service have been violated or if, in all good faith, we judge it is legally justified As with any business, your personal information is also an asset of Blizzard and will become part of our normal business records. As such, in the event of a merger, acquisition, reorganization, bank-ruptcy, or other similar event, your personal information may be transferred to Blizzard 's successor or assignee." This is from the Blizzard privacy policy in the EULA, it contravenes the UK data protection act and yet they say it applies to the UK and show me where I can "opt out" of this option. This is not making shit up, Ta. The personal information you provide Blizzard will allow us to fulfill your product or service order; alert you of new products or services, features, or enhancements; handle/route your customer service or technical support questions or issues; to send eCards or “Recruit-a-Friend” emails; and/or notify you of upgrade opportunities, contests, promotions, or special events and offers. Blizzard may enhance or merge the personal information collected at a Blizzard site with data from third parties. Blizzard may also provide your personal information to other companies or organizations that offer products or services that may be of interest to you. In such cases, we will notify you that the information will be shared and provide you with an opportunity to opt-out.
|
On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote:SO You think that if a consumer doesnt agree with a EULA or if the EULA contravenes their local laws they arent entitled to a refund?
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have.
1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key.
Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either.
Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore.
|
On November 15 2010 20:17 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote:SO You think that if a consumer doesnt agree with a EULA or if the EULA contravenes their local laws they arent entitled to a refund?
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have. 1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key. Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either. Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore. Once again, since you are blind: "IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE."
Also, you can not register the account key without a battle.net account, which has its own EULA that you must agree to.
PS: I thought you were saying earlier that you had gotten many game refunds because you claimed that the UK had laws that protected you?
EDIT: Ah yea, found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895¤tpage=19#365 "I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs."
|
On November 15 2010 20:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:17 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote:SO You think that if a consumer doesnt agree with a EULA or if the EULA contravenes their local laws they arent entitled to a refund?
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have. 1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key. Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either. Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore. Once again, since you are blind: "IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE." Also, you can not register the account key without a battle.net account, which has its own EULA that you must agree to. PS: I thought you were saying earlier that you had gotten many game refunds because you claimed that the UK had laws that protected you? EDIT: Ah yea, found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895¤tpage=19#365"I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs."
That telephone number is American from the american website.
Yes I have, most dont know their rights and as I said before banks in this country used to have such privacy policy with the option of not opening an account with them. It is not legal..
|
On November 15 2010 20:29 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:17 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote:SO You think that if a consumer doesnt agree with a EULA or if the EULA contravenes their local laws they arent entitled to a refund?
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have. 1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key. Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either. Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore. Once again, since you are blind: "IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE." Also, you can not register the account key without a battle.net account, which has its own EULA that you must agree to. PS: I thought you were saying earlier that you had gotten many game refunds because you claimed that the UK had laws that protected you? EDIT: Ah yea, found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895¤tpage=19#365"I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs." That telephone number is American from the american website. Yes I have, most dont know their rights and as I said before banks in this country used to have such privacy policy with the option of not opening an account with them. It is not legal.. Well, thanks for making me look up the EU policy "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY ARRANGE TO RETURN THE GAME TO YOUR RETAILER, OR YOU MAY CONTACT BLIZZARD BY EMAIL AT WOWBILLINGSUPPORTEU@BLIZZARD.COM TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE, AND YOU SHOULD DELETE THE SOFTWARE PROGRAM IMMEDIATELY."
Same policy, but an email instead of a phone number.
|
On November 14 2010 16:48 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 16:32 DaRkFrosT wrote: Blizzard has every right to sue Kespa, if the list in the OP is correct.
Kespa = greedy as shit =/ The list is so pro blizzard its sickening, I mean, sure KeSPA done alot of shit (DQ of Ruby fx) but I dont get why blizz doesnt treat the SCBW like free advertisement. You could make a thread which disposed KeSPA as the good guy and Blizzard as the villian and then people would agree on that in the thread. Sigh, netizens easily manipulated even though I guess all anti kespa would come here to show off their hate...
They DID treat it this way by selling the IP rights to GOM for 1 dollar. 1 dollar. If that is not free, then at least its pretty fucking close.
|
On November 15 2010 20:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:29 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:17 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote:SO You think that if a consumer doesnt agree with a EULA or if the EULA contravenes their local laws they arent entitled to a refund?
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have. 1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key. Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either. Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore. Once again, since you are blind: "IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE." Also, you can not register the account key without a battle.net account, which has its own EULA that you must agree to. PS: I thought you were saying earlier that you had gotten many game refunds because you claimed that the UK had laws that protected you? EDIT: Ah yea, found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895¤tpage=19#365"I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs." That telephone number is American from the american website. Yes I have, most dont know their rights and as I said before banks in this country used to have such privacy policy with the option of not opening an account with them. It is not legal.. Well, thanks for making me look up the EU policy "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY ARRANGE TO RETURN THE GAME TO YOUR RETAILER, OR YOU MAY CONTACT BLIZZARD BY EMAIL AT WOWBILLINGSUPPORTEU@BLIZZARD.COM TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE, AND YOU SHOULD DELETE THE SOFTWARE PROGRAM IMMEDIATELY." Same policy, but an email instead of a phone number. But opening the box means you have "agreeed"to it before you have had the chance to read it. Their words not mine. As I said it contravenes the data protection act with the option of returning the product. You cant do that either.
|
On November 15 2010 20:38 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:29 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:17 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote: [quote]
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have. 1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key. Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either. Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore. Once again, since you are blind: "IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE." Also, you can not register the account key without a battle.net account, which has its own EULA that you must agree to. PS: I thought you were saying earlier that you had gotten many game refunds because you claimed that the UK had laws that protected you? EDIT: Ah yea, found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895¤tpage=19#365"I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs." That telephone number is American from the american website. Yes I have, most dont know their rights and as I said before banks in this country used to have such privacy policy with the option of not opening an account with them. It is not legal.. Well, thanks for making me look up the EU policy "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY ARRANGE TO RETURN THE GAME TO YOUR RETAILER, OR YOU MAY CONTACT BLIZZARD BY EMAIL AT WOWBILLINGSUPPORTEU@BLIZZARD.COM TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE, AND YOU SHOULD DELETE THE SOFTWARE PROGRAM IMMEDIATELY." Same policy, but an email instead of a phone number. But opening the box means you have "agreeed"to it before you have had the chance to read it. Their words not mine. As I said it contravenes the data protection act with the option of returning the product. You cant do that either. Where in hell do you see that you opening the box means you agreed to it? Are you high?
|
On November 15 2010 20:39 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:38 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:29 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:17 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote: [quote] Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have. 1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key. Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either. Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore. Once again, since you are blind: "IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE." Also, you can not register the account key without a battle.net account, which has its own EULA that you must agree to. PS: I thought you were saying earlier that you had gotten many game refunds because you claimed that the UK had laws that protected you? EDIT: Ah yea, found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895¤tpage=19#365"I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs." That telephone number is American from the american website. Yes I have, most dont know their rights and as I said before banks in this country used to have such privacy policy with the option of not opening an account with them. It is not legal.. Well, thanks for making me look up the EU policy "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY ARRANGE TO RETURN THE GAME TO YOUR RETAILER, OR YOU MAY CONTACT BLIZZARD BY EMAIL AT WOWBILLINGSUPPORTEU@BLIZZARD.COM TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE, AND YOU SHOULD DELETE THE SOFTWARE PROGRAM IMMEDIATELY." Same policy, but an email instead of a phone number. But opening the box means you have "agreeed"to it before you have had the chance to read it. Their words not mine. As I said it contravenes the data protection act with the option of returning the product. You cant do that either. Where in hell do you see that you opening the box means you agreed to it? Are you high? No need to be rude, hmm ok I admit they have changed their wording from their games in the past. On my WC3 box it says "The use of this product is subject to the terms of the enclosed EULA". I got the opening thing from microsoft which is their favourite phrase.
They have now changed that to: - "The use of this product is subject to the EULA licence agreement at etc etc."
It still doesnt fly legally though. All I am saying is that a EULA is not binding a legal contract and that you cannot be made to agree with something that isnt legal in the first place. Which is why its wrong to say but its in the EULA because local laws may well override it. Is that so hard to understand?
|
On November 15 2010 15:39 Gonodactylus wrote: See, suddenly these hotshot 'law undergrads' liars are forced to turn around.
And in fact we are talking about SC BW, not SC2. Remember, this is on the wrong forum. SC BW had nothing on the box about Blizzard owning the replays, the maps the matches and whatever you create using their game.
Secondly, it's right; Blizzard isn't even suing Kespa. So how does it even matter how much you hate kespa? Do you hate OGN&MBC? And I again want to point out that OGN&MBC were, besides Blizzard, one of the few actually making a profit. They got broadcasting rights of the players for free and it's very cheap to create the content. So Kespa made them force to pay to the teams. That is good. It made player conditions better for sure.
OGN and MBC are the only two organizations that can run professional Starcraft tournaments and broadcast them to a wide audience; be it SC BW or SC2. Blizzard is now suing their biggest potential ally because of blind greed.
And for all those people claiming esports players have no IP rights under law; no kidding! What country has an esports law? IP was an idea that grow out of a certain moral view and only later on it was turned into law by the corporations themselves as they went along and it became beneficial. If you are going to protect IP rights why do it only for the big shot corporations and not for the small man. It's immoral. I never claimed that it was already legally so or not. I only claimed that about EULA's which has many cases associated.
And even if an EULA holds up in the US, remember how it holds up in court that corporations have personhood. That was never a law. It still isn't a law. US is a very corrupt country. The fortune500 owns the country, control the politicians and judges.
Blizzard will probably win vs MBC and OGN. But when they extort MBC and OGN into agreeing the rights are 50-50 between them when Kespa runs the leagues and the players provide the creative content the viewers come to watch for, how is that fair and moral? That's all I am saying. Blizzard is immoral. EULAs, which everyone uses, are weak and ought to be illegal always. That's all I am saying and no matter how ignorant of a student at some crappy community college you are, that doesn't change what is already there in print. And let's not forget the Korean government already told Blizzard to change their EULA as it would have been obviously illegal. They didn't change this for the rest of the world because it isn't an issue for the governments there. And if corporations were really real persons, we would all diagnose them as psychopaths and lock them up. They act as psychopaths because they must as bound by law to act as such. Case Dodge bros vs Ford.
As for all those people calling me 'idiot', 'troll', 'kespa agent', 'down syndrome', 'retard', fuck you guys too.
i honestly don't know if you're trolling or just stupid, first you say that although you pressed agree on the EULA, you won't follow anything said in the EULA because "you had no say in it" and now you're attacking the US as a country by saying its corrupt. nothing you have said in this thread have been based on facts or have made sense... can someone just ban this guy?
|
On November 15 2010 20:38 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 20:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:29 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:17 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 20:12 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 15 2010 20:10 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 16:01 Dakkas wrote:On November 15 2010 14:55 Vimsey wrote:On November 15 2010 14:54 Dakkas wrote: [quote]
That has nothing to do with what I said. I said your analogy was horrible Providing now extra input or reason why, cheers. In your example, you imply that you are forced to sign a contract/agreement against your own free will, that you don't have the choice of not signing it upon threat of physical violence. If your example was to apply true here, it would mean that Blizzard are forcing you to agree with the EULA by threatening you with damage to your persons (either physical or legal) if you don't agree with purchasing the game and installing it. Last time I checked, I have not heard of any cases of Blizzard suing people for not buying the game You cant run the game without "agreeing" to the EULA, You have to give another option for it to be legal. Your other option is to decline. Or do you seriously mean to imply that you should be given the option to decline and still run the game? I hope not because that is the same retarded argument that the other guy used earlier in the thread... and he got completely demolished How many places do you know that openly offer a refund if you have. 1) Opened the game. 2) Registered the account key. Its not impossible to get your money back but not easy either. Also a parallel I would draw would be UK banks a few years back that openly sold their customer data to advertisers/marketeers when they put in just such implied agreements into their contracts. You cannot do that anymore. Once again, since you are blind: "IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE." Also, you can not register the account key without a battle.net account, which has its own EULA that you must agree to. PS: I thought you were saying earlier that you had gotten many game refunds because you claimed that the UK had laws that protected you? EDIT: Ah yea, found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168895¤tpage=19#365"I have got refunds from many games simply by stating my consumer rights when I have needed to the thing is that most people dont know their rights and if you knew anything about the legal profession you would know how much they laugh at EULAs." That telephone number is American from the american website. Yes I have, most dont know their rights and as I said before banks in this country used to have such privacy policy with the option of not opening an account with them. It is not legal.. Well, thanks for making me look up the EU policy "IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY ARRANGE TO RETURN THE GAME TO YOUR RETAILER, OR YOU MAY CONTACT BLIZZARD BY EMAIL AT WOWBILLINGSUPPORTEU@BLIZZARD.COM TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE, AND YOU SHOULD DELETE THE SOFTWARE PROGRAM IMMEDIATELY." Same policy, but an email instead of a phone number. But opening the box means you have "agreeed"to it before you have had the chance to read it. Their words not mine. As I said it contravenes the data protection act with the option of returning the product. You cant do that either.
No, I think it doesn't mean that. It means if you read the EULA within 30 days and decide you don't agree, you can return the product with a full refund regardless of box's condition.
Regarding that would EULA will upheld or not, I think it depends on case to case. The case with the size of Blizzard is on another level of what are you trying to argue here.
|
|
|
|