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On April 21 2021 20:44 oEkY wrote: WOW, game 3 of the finals today is a MUST watch, best game ive seen in a very long time I agree! I only watched few moments, as much as my work allowed me. But I will definitely re-watch this again.
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Yep, Shuttle - Larva on Hidden Track is one of the best PvZ's in recent memory.
So many game-flow decisions that both players had to take. Pretty impressive.
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When you see Arbiter in PvZ you know it must be an epic game...
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What else is new?
Correct me if I am wrong: KCM Race wins: 8T 7Z and... 1P
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On April 21 2021 21:55 Rainalcar wrote: What else is new?
Correct me if I am wrong: KCM Race wins: 8T 7Z and... 1P
Yeah and that only P win came from the season when they finished third during the tour period and just happened to have Best and Shuttle switching on their god mode in the semi and final.
In fact I believe P finished third during the tour period in most, if not all, of the recent KCMs.
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On April 21 2021 20:46 jtkirk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 20:44 oEkY wrote: WOW, game 3 of the finals today is a MUST watch, best game ive seen in a very long time I agree! I only watched few moments, as much as my work allowed me. But I will definitely re-watch this again. Any clue where we can watch this?
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On April 21 2021 22:04 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 21:55 Rainalcar wrote: What else is new?
Correct me if I am wrong: KCM Race wins: 8T 7Z and... 1P
Yeah and that only P win came from the season when they finished third during the tour period and just happened to have Best and Shuttle switching on their god mode in the semi and final. In fact I believe P finished third during the tour period in most, if not all, of the recent KCMs.
There really is nothing to say. But yes, let's leave it solely to the maps with regard to balance. That worked out really well.
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Sick sick game!!! Recall, stasis, guardians and scouts !
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On April 22 2021 03:20 Rainalcar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 22:04 TMNT wrote:On April 21 2021 21:55 Rainalcar wrote: What else is new?
Correct me if I am wrong: KCM Race wins: 8T 7Z and... 1P
Yeah and that only P win came from the season when they finished third during the tour period and just happened to have Best and Shuttle switching on their god mode in the semi and final. In fact I believe P finished third during the tour period in most, if not all, of the recent KCMs. There really is nothing to say. But yes, let's leave it solely to the maps with regard to balance. That worked out really well. Actually I think there's another reason that explains the poor performance of Protoss in KCM. The format is if you win against T your next match is Z and then T and then Z... and because there's no Protoss who's good at both PvT and PvZ, they are less likely to have a winning streak compared to the other races, so they always ended up finishing third.
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On April 22 2021 06:57 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 03:20 Rainalcar wrote:On April 21 2021 22:04 TMNT wrote:On April 21 2021 21:55 Rainalcar wrote: What else is new?
Correct me if I am wrong: KCM Race wins: 8T 7Z and... 1P
Yeah and that only P win came from the season when they finished third during the tour period and just happened to have Best and Shuttle switching on their god mode in the semi and final. In fact I believe P finished third during the tour period in most, if not all, of the recent KCMs. There really is nothing to say. But yes, let's leave it solely to the maps with regard to balance. That worked out really well. Actually I think there's another reason that explains the poor performance of Protoss in KCM. The format is if you win against T your next match is Z and then T and then Z... and because there's no Protoss who's good at both PvT and PvZ, they are less likely to have a winning streak compared to the other races, so they always ended up finishing third.
That's a great post. Can you imagine if Bisu was as good vs T as he was vs Z?
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That's indeed a not so obvious angle, pretty smart. Plus there's the fact that Bisu hasn't been back from military service for too long, he only had the chance to participate in the latter ~1/3 part of KCM, and some of that with him yet having to regain his old form.
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> and because there's no Protoss who's good at both PvT and PvZ
How many Protoss players even have >50% PvZ in the KCM league?
Edit: Game 3 of finals... unbelievable!
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GGs..
game 3 might be GOTY, btw.. Complete insanity! wow
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On April 22 2021 13:25 Djabanete wrote: > and because there's no Protoss who's good at both PvT and PvZ
How many Protoss players even have >50% PvZ in the KCM league?
Edit: Game 3 of finals... unbelievable!
Exactly. Long term, a dominant PvZ player does not exist. Bisu's prowess vs Z is from a bygone era almost, and it is, in case, completely incomparable to relatively far superior results of best Zergs vP.
And yes, game 3 was amazing.
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I'm slightly saddened but not surprised at how this thread turned out; instead of celebrating a fantastic finals that went all games and had both upsets and great performances from both sides, people use it to whine about balance and fabricate facts. Personally I really enjoyed the games, although I think people might overvalue the performance in the third game, while it was very entertaining, both players made quite a few mistakes. I was also pretty tilted at how badly Snow performed, it's like he was in love with his 1 ling hole wall and delayed his cannons because of it -- ended up costing him the game.
This year in spon games, Bisu has a better PvZ win rate than any zerg has in ZvP. In fact, Bisu has been doing so well in pvz that he has a winning record against every single zerg player in the scene. 14-4 vs Soulkey, 33-29 vs Soma, 47-31 vs Larva, 34-21 vs Hero, 33-8 vs Effort, 12-8 vs Zero, 39-21 vs Action. He also has a winning record against all terrans except for Flash (2-5) and Light (14-21). Now look at Bisu's performance in events, he actually hasn't done particularly well, he crashed and burned last ASL losing to two comparatively bad terran players. In my opinion, Bisu's issues appear to not be race or balance related, but rather mental.
So why has protoss performed below par in KCM? I won't presume to know the answer, but there are many avenues one could persue. I think the main issue is the lack of a consistent 3rd/4th protoss. Bisu and Best tend to do okay, and then the last slot rotated between Mini Shuttle Snow and Stork through the regular season, and they did not really perform well. Shuttle being their 4th spot in the playoffs is quite telling, he's not even a top 20 player in sponbbang, regardless of how well he performed in the finals.
But really, I think it's absolutely silly to start whining about balance when we have such a close final, and pvz stats on spon are the best they've been in a very long time.
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Polaris Rahpsody is one of the few maps that might favour P in ZvP and Bisu couldn’t bring it home. Hopeless!
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Great effort from Shuttle too. Some really great games from him.
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I think the explanation is far simpler than anything mentioned in this thread.
Protoss is vulnerable against Zerg in a Bo1, almost irrespective of overall skill.
For example: if the 10th best Zerg was dropped into playing against any of the Top3 Protosses he could choose from a variety of all-ins to get a win just to kill that top player that would otherwise have a decent showing in a different format.
So Zerg has way more room to plan one of these series depending on the lineup of players.
Terran on the other hand has way more stability against any of the other races so it's easier for them to be very consistent in this league format.
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