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On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote: Macsed's response:
"说下当时情况吧,第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜,当然所有人都和我这么说,我也觉得他很菜,然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢,但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿,我就封了他得气,一旦封了他拿什么打我低保?可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的,因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的,所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的,因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束,然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了,当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误,但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了,因为我家里已经挡不住了,他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我,太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." |
On March 15 2019 23:44 DSh1 wrote: It's not obvious it's fixed. It's obvious he is throwing I would say.
Though his statement doesn't help his case.
Obvious throw + questionable betting = fixed match
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 15 2019 22:18 Boggyb wrote: If I'm ever being tried for a crime, I want some of you guys on my jury. In the jury room, you'd say "Sure, he bought the same type of gun that was used in the murder a week before, was caught on film saying 'you better watch yourself' to the deceased, and his cell phone put him in the area when the murder happened, but that's all circumstantial, and if circumstantial evidence isn't enough to convict someone of match fixing, it isn't nearly enough for a murder trial no matter how damning that circumstantial evidence is.". Most of the time if the cops don't have the murder weapon, eye witness(who can be dismantled by a good defendant because eye witnesses are very lousy evidence(not joking)) or other direct evidence, the circumstancial evidence have to be damn strong. That's how many innocents were executed in US. Later on it was found they were innocent. Read something about those cases. That's why the system should work on the premise, that it's better to leave someone dangerous free than to ruin someone who's innocent.
Even current DNA testing isn't as strong evidence as many would love to believe. There's plenty of what can go wrong during the murder investigation.
Since you're one of the lynch mobbing guys, let me ask you several questions: 1) How much money was involved in the betting? 2) How does the Pinnacle algorithm for betting weights the volatility. We have an unknown player who can have a fake account(smurf account) and is much higher in reality, we don't know. We have a game that's volatile(bo loss is still a thing) and we have a volatile format(considering map betting, you can have a lucky win, proleague showed us some games where the clear favorite lost, sure, there wasn't such high discrepancy between the MMR but still, even in BO3 the victor wouldn't have a chance) 3) What was the motive of MacSed? Why did he accepted it? If it's illegal in China you're trapping yourself with future blackmailing possibilities for what exactly? 4) Who contanted whom? 5) Can you clearly discard any other potential cases?
I can go on, but we don't know how much money was involved, who made the plan, why MacSed lost and how does the algorithm work. It may have been few hundred bucks or few thousand, we don't know.
All we know that there was some weird betting and that the game looked bad. But we, as a community, should demant thorough investigation, not a lynch.
Similarly to your example. You bought a gun - where's the gun? If you have the gun, you can easily prove your innocence. Your mobile phone said IT was there(not that you were there). Where's your mobile phone? You said you would kill him, how many people did you said that to? (it makes life easier if you threaten to everybody when in rage)
In case you will suddenly lose your gun, your phone and except this person you've never threatened to anybody else, it would look suspicious. On the other hand - leaving the crime scene without any trace of evidence is nowadays nearly impossible, for example, clothes. Did you burn them? How often were you at his home? because there's a high chance you lost something there that can be analyzed. Did you take all the shells with you? If not - did you use gloves while filling the gun/clip? Did you shoot with an overall, mask and such things on? (so you can't leave evidence)
There are ways how to kill safely, I guarantee you, but most of the time in the western countries in cases of murders - the general person will do a mistake. And it's not just this weak evidence (at least nowadays) to get you in jail.
I spend too much time with cops
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On March 15 2019 23:31 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote:
One notable feature about Chinese SC2 fans is that they tend to be very nationalistic (some of them are arguably as racist as Powerfoe and NinjaNight). For them, an established player loosing to a not well-regarded foreign player is simply unforgivable.
Hahaha! I can't take you seriously after this. Talk about "jumping to conclusions." I'm not racist at all. I'd be defending Macsed if I didn't feel the evidence was so overwhelmingly against him that there's little chance he didn't matchfix. On the contrary I hope the Chinese scene does well and stays honest.
Claims that you are racist to undermine the evidence against Macsed, then he proceeds to use racism as an argument for why Macsed wouldn't match fix. I don't even play sc2 but this is entertaining as hell
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On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed.
The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else.
Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD.
I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen.
If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China.
We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence.
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On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2019 22:18 Boggyb wrote: If I'm ever being tried for a crime, I want some of you guys on my jury. In the jury room, you'd say "Sure, he bought the same type of gun that was used in the murder a week before, was caught on film saying 'you better watch yourself' to the deceased, and his cell phone put him in the area when the murder happened, but that's all circumstantial, and if circumstantial evidence isn't enough to convict someone of match fixing, it isn't nearly enough for a murder trial no matter how damning that circumstantial evidence is.". Most of the time if the cops don't have the murder weapon, eye witness(who can be dismantled by a good defendant because eye witnesses are very lousy evidence(not joking)) or other direct evidence, the circumstancial evidence have to be damn strong. That's how many innocents were executed in US. Later on it was found they were innocent. Read something about those cases. That's why the system should work on the premise, that it's better to leave someone dangerous free than to ruin someone who's innocent. Most erroneous convictions are not a product of circumstantial evidence painting an incorrect picture but police or prosecutor misconduct along with incompetent or overworked public defenders. Racism by jurors is also a factor.
On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote: Since you're one of the lynch mobbing guys, let me ask you several questions: 1) How much money was involved in the betting? It doesn't matter from the esports perspective though it possibly does from a legal perspective in terms of determining severity of the crime. If he took $.01 to throw a game, he should be banned for life. If Rail took $.01 to help facilitate it, he should be banned for life.
On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote: 2) How does the Pinnacle algorithm for betting weights the volatility. We have an unknown player who can have a fake account(smurf account) and is much higher in reality, we don't know. We have a game that's volatile(bo loss is still a thing) and we have a volatile format(considering map betting, you can have a lucky win, proleague showed us some games where the clear favorite lost, sure, there wasn't such high discrepancy between the MMR but still, even in BO3 the victor wouldn't have a chance) While that might be relevant from a criminal perspective or to Pinnacle, it doesn't matter from an esports perspective.
On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote: 3) What was the motive of MacSed? Why did he accepted it? If it's illegal in China you're trapping yourself with future blackmailing possibilities for what exactly? Money. He thought he wouldn't get caught. Blackmailing a co-conspirator in a crime is all kinds of dumb as there is mutually assured destruction, but even ignoring that, most criminals are dumb and don't think things through or they wouldn't commit the crime.
On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote: 4) Who contanted whom? That doesn't matter in the slightest unless you're talking about entrapment situations and while that might matter from a legal perspective, it doesn't for the esports perspective. Ban him regardless.
On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote: 5) Can you clearly discard any other potential cases? No. Anyone who match fixes should be banned for life.
On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote: All we know that there was some weird betting and that the game looked bad. But we, as a community, should demand thorough investigation, not a lynch. From an esports perspective, the investigation need be nothing more than verifying the betting happened as described, then talking to everyone involved on the .0000000000000001% chance they can give a decent explanation for what happened. (The explanations we've gotten so far do not come close and any change to those are suspect) Then you ban the guilty for life.
If the police decide to prosecute, then yes, additional evidence is helpful since pointing to money trails is easier than explaining Elo ratings and how the "mistakes" MacSed made are not realistic to a judge or jury.
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On March 16 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2019 22:18 Boggyb wrote: If I'm ever being tried for a crime, I want some of you guys on my jury. In the jury room, you'd say "Sure, he bought the same type of gun that was used in the murder a week before, was caught on film saying 'you better watch yourself' to the deceased, and his cell phone put him in the area when the murder happened, but that's all circumstantial, and if circumstantial evidence isn't enough to convict someone of match fixing, it isn't nearly enough for a murder trial no matter how damning that circumstantial evidence is.". Most of the time if the cops don't have the murder weapon, eye witness(who can be dismantled by a good defendant because eye witnesses are very lousy evidence(not joking)) or other direct evidence, the circumstancial evidence have to be damn strong. That's how many innocents were executed in US. Later on it was found they were innocent. Read something about those cases. That's why the system should work on the premise, that it's better to leave someone dangerous free than to ruin someone who's innocent. Even current DNA testing isn't as strong evidence as many would love to believe. There's plenty of what can go wrong during the murder investigation. Since you're one of the lynch mobbing guys, let me ask you several questions: 1) How much money was involved in the betting? 2) How does the Pinnacle algorithm for betting weights the volatility. We have an unknown player who can have a fake account(smurf account) and is much higher in reality, we don't know. We have a game that's volatile(bo loss is still a thing) and we have a volatile format(considering map betting, you can have a lucky win, proleague showed us some games where the clear favorite lost, sure, there wasn't such high discrepancy between the MMR but still, even in BO3 the victor wouldn't have a chance) 3) What was the motive of MacSed? Why did he accepted it? If it's illegal in China you're trapping yourself with future blackmailing possibilities for what exactly? 4) Who contanted whom? 5) Can you clearly discard any other potential cases? I can go on, but we don't know how much money was involved, who made the plan, why MacSed lost and how does the algorithm work. It may have been few hundred bucks or few thousand, we don't know. All we know that there was some weird betting and that the game looked bad. But we, as a community, should demant thorough investigation, not a lynch. Similarly to your example. You bought a gun - where's the gun? If you have the gun, you can easily prove your innocence. Your mobile phone said IT was there(not that you were there). Where's your mobile phone? You said you would kill him, how many people did you said that to? (it makes life easier if you threaten to everybody when in rage) In case you will suddenly lose your gun, your phone and except this person you've never threatened to anybody else, it would look suspicious. On the other hand - leaving the crime scene without any trace of evidence is nowadays nearly impossible, for example, clothes. Did you burn them? How often were you at his home? because there's a high chance you lost something there that can be analyzed. Did you take all the shells with you? If not - did you use gloves while filling the gun/clip? Did you shoot with an overall, mask and such things on? (so you can't leave evidence) There are ways how to kill safely, I guarantee you, but most of the time in the western countries in cases of murders - the general person will do a mistake. And it's not just this weak evidence (at least nowadays) to get you in jail. I spend too much time with cops Do you genuinely think that macsed did not deliberately lose the game, or do you just not like bobbyb's analogy?
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Random aside: Isn't it entirely possible that he bet on himself to lose? No co-conspirator needed? Or at least just a friend to be the proxy.
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On March 16 2019 01:59 Russano wrote: Random aside: Isn't it entirely possible that he bet on himself to lose? No co-conspirator needed? Or at least just a friend to be the proxy. Absolutely. The issue there is they'd be more likely to raise flags if they have new accounts making a huge, unusual bet on an otherwise small time series. Professional bettors/cheaters would know how to minimized the risks.
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On March 16 2019 00:58 Pilot912 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else. Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD. I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen. If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China. We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence.
You can tell all you want about an official stance you want, but using crypto and trading in it is still pretty easy in China if you want to and despite online gambling being banned I am willing to bet no one really cares about it and no investigation would ever be launched into a single bet of a few hundred dollars and there is virtually no risk despite there being a 'trace'.
And then we're not even taken into account he was probably paid in another way and someone else put the bet up. So yea, it all sounds pretty scary, but in reality none of these are arguments have much credibility and none of them would be much of a hindrance for fixing the game.
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On March 16 2019 02:11 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2019 00:58 Pilot912 wrote:On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else. Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD. I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen. If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China. We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence. You can tell all you want about an official stance you want, but using crypto and trading in it is still pretty easy in China if you want to and despite online gambling being banned I am willing to bet no one really cares about it and no investigation would ever be launched into a single bet of a few hundred dollars and there is virtually no risk despite there being a 'trace'. And then we're not even taken into account he was probably paid in another way and someone else put the bet up. So yea, it all sounds pretty scary, but in reality none of these are arguments have much credibility and none of them would be much of a hindrance for fixing the game.
It is possible to be the case you stated, but again, it is not "pretty easy in China" in 2019. Just read some news (e.g. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/07/09/china-crackdown-bitcoin/) and get a sense about how China's finance system these days work on the mechanism of tracking every single dollar of people's daily spending... There will be trace if match-fix is involved, and again, it is under investigation.
You make the case that "he could be paid in another way", but again, how? Now the story would be like, someone found a Chinese proxy agent, approached MacSed, had to win his trust (if someone you don't know came to you, say. "dude, want to make some quick cash?" What's your normal response?), found an untraceable way to make the payment, and then, for at most thousands of dollars?
Again, I don't believe a 32 year-old (yes, MacSed is that old) would take his daily job and career at risk for such small amount. I make the judgment from a working adult's common sense. I could be proved to be wrong. But before that, just don't be so determined that someone barely staying above MMR 6000 cannot lose to MMR4000 player in a hilarious way.
I will shut up from now on since I have made my points. The sad thing is, given how the community had responded, even official investigation result probably won't clear MacSed's name since so many people already rushed to the conclusion.
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This is the most fixed game i've ever seen. I don't find what MacSed did wrong btw, cheers to him for ez money of people who are gambling on a video game. One should have right to throw his own games, because anything you do to throw intentionally can be counted as "playing bad" or vice versa anyways. Just look how ridiculously naive these comments here about a %101 fixed game.
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On March 16 2019 03:05 Pilot912 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2019 02:11 Kaolla wrote:On March 16 2019 00:58 Pilot912 wrote:On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else. Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD. I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen. If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China. We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence. You can tell all you want about an official stance you want, but using crypto and trading in it is still pretty easy in China if you want to and despite online gambling being banned I am willing to bet no one really cares about it and no investigation would ever be launched into a single bet of a few hundred dollars and there is virtually no risk despite there being a 'trace'. And then we're not even taken into account he was probably paid in another way and someone else put the bet up. So yea, it all sounds pretty scary, but in reality none of these are arguments have much credibility and none of them would be much of a hindrance for fixing the game. It is possible to be the case you stated, but again, it is not "pretty easy in China" in 2019. Just read some news (e.g. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/07/09/china-crackdown-bitcoin/) and get a sense about how China's finance system these days work on the mechanism of tracking every single dollar of people's daily spending... There will be trace if match-fix is involved, and again, it is under investigation. You make the case that "he could be paid in another way", but again, how? Now the story would be like, someone found a Chinese proxy agent, approached MacSed, had to win his trust (if someone you don't know came to you, say. "dude, want to make some quick cash?" What's your normal response?), found an untraceable way to make the payment, and then, for at most thousands of dollars? Again, I don't believe a 32 year-old (yes, MacSed is that old) would take his daily job and career at risk for such small amount. I make the judgment from a working adult's common sense. I could be proved to be wrong. But before that, just don't be so determined that someone barely staying above MMR 6000 cannot lose to MMR4000 player in a hilarious way. I will shut up from now on since I have made my points. The sad thing is, given how the community had responded, even official investigation result probably won't clear MacSed's name since so many people already rushed to the conclusion.
Wait a second ... who ever claimed that it was a non-chinese who paid MacSed for throwing the map ... and it should easily be possible for a chinese to pay another chinese, right? So no cross-national transfer of money would be needed ... and only a few people questioned that a 6k MMR player can lose to a 4k MMR player ... However, the way MacSed lost that game is pretty indicative of intentionally throwing the map ...
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On March 16 2019 03:36 Aegwynn wrote: This is the most fixed game i've ever seen. I don't find what MacSed did wrong btw, cheers to him for ez money of people who are gambling on a video game. One should have right to throw his own games, because anything you do to throw intentionally can be counted as "playing bad" or vice versa anyways. Just look how ridiculously naive these comments here about a %101 fixed game.
No, throwing games on purpose should be illegal not "one should have right to throw his own games". It ruins trust, it ruins bets although gamble is forbidden in some countries (e.g. South Korea?), hence less viewership. That's exactly what sport organisers don't want.
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On March 16 2019 03:40 Xophy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2019 03:05 Pilot912 wrote:On March 16 2019 02:11 Kaolla wrote:On March 16 2019 00:58 Pilot912 wrote:On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else. Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD. I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen. If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China. We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence. You can tell all you want about an official stance you want, but using crypto and trading in it is still pretty easy in China if you want to and despite online gambling being banned I am willing to bet no one really cares about it and no investigation would ever be launched into a single bet of a few hundred dollars and there is virtually no risk despite there being a 'trace'. And then we're not even taken into account he was probably paid in another way and someone else put the bet up. So yea, it all sounds pretty scary, but in reality none of these are arguments have much credibility and none of them would be much of a hindrance for fixing the game. It is possible to be the case you stated, but again, it is not "pretty easy in China" in 2019. Just read some news (e.g. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/07/09/china-crackdown-bitcoin/) and get a sense about how China's finance system these days work on the mechanism of tracking every single dollar of people's daily spending... There will be trace if match-fix is involved, and again, it is under investigation. You make the case that "he could be paid in another way", but again, how? Now the story would be like, someone found a Chinese proxy agent, approached MacSed, had to win his trust (if someone you don't know came to you, say. "dude, want to make some quick cash?" What's your normal response?), found an untraceable way to make the payment, and then, for at most thousands of dollars? Again, I don't believe a 32 year-old (yes, MacSed is that old) would take his daily job and career at risk for such small amount. I make the judgment from a working adult's common sense. I could be proved to be wrong. But before that, just don't be so determined that someone barely staying above MMR 6000 cannot lose to MMR4000 player in a hilarious way. I will shut up from now on since I have made my points. The sad thing is, given how the community had responded, even official investigation result probably won't clear MacSed's name since so many people already rushed to the conclusion. Wait a second ... who ever claimed that it was a non-chinese who paid MacSed for throwing the map ... and it should easily be possible for a chinese to pay another chinese, right? So no cross-national transfer of money would be needed ... and only a few people questioned that a 6k MMR player can lose to a 4k MMR player ... However, the way MacSed lost that game is pretty indicative of intentionally throwing the map ...
If it is a Chinese paid MacSed to do so, then why not gambling at a Chinese underground gambling site? Get my point? I am not rushing to any conclusion, just point out all the odd issues beyond the VOD. To go back to my original point, the story sounds more "persuasive or logic" if:
(1) not Pinnacle, but a Chinese underground gambling site showed the betting line changes, in this case, this could be a domestic affair, avoiding all the issues I raised.
(2) Someone found an established Chinese player, and another much stronger EU players, paid both to let the Chinese player to "match-fix" an unexpected win. Such situation won't trigger China's nationalistic fans' backlash.
What we have is the most unlikely situation: a semi-retired player is to match-fix knowing that such action would lead to online harassment from nationalistic fans, do it knowing the game is broadcasted, and after finished being laughed by all friends coming to the tournament.
Think about all these factors... I have to say, the money involved must be substantial, which, would leave trace. But as far as we know, such a smallish game won't attract that huge amount of money from the beginning.
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On March 16 2019 03:52 SC-Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2019 03:36 Aegwynn wrote: This is the most fixed game i've ever seen. I don't find what MacSed did wrong btw, cheers to him for ez money of people who are gambling on a video game. One should have right to throw his own games, because anything you do to throw intentionally can be counted as "playing bad" or vice versa anyways. Just look how ridiculously naive these comments here about a %101 fixed game. No, throwing games on purpose should be illegal not "one should have right to throw his own games". It ruins trust, it ruins bets although gamble is forbidden in some countries (e.g. South Korea?), hence less viewership. That's exactly what sport organisers don't want. I disagree, i believe legal throwing would eventually kill map score based bettings and this kind of pointless discussions.
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Now I know that some of you see everything in bloody colours when it comes to matchfixing, but hear me out here. I recently realized that matchfixing, while unpleasant, isn't as big of a deal as it seems - simply because for it to have any purpose, it needs to be rare. There is no risk of "every match being fixed", just because nobody would bet on that. The millisecond a sport gets the rap of being heavily fixed, the any bettor with half a brain must move to something else, no? And without bettors, there is noone to win money from - the betting companies aren't going to subsidize the fixers by their own money and will just close shop and move on when normal bettors leave.
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On March 16 2019 03:54 Pilot912 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2019 03:40 Xophy wrote:On March 16 2019 03:05 Pilot912 wrote:On March 16 2019 02:11 Kaolla wrote:On March 16 2019 00:58 Pilot912 wrote:On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else. Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD. I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen. If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China. We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence. You can tell all you want about an official stance you want, but using crypto and trading in it is still pretty easy in China if you want to and despite online gambling being banned I am willing to bet no one really cares about it and no investigation would ever be launched into a single bet of a few hundred dollars and there is virtually no risk despite there being a 'trace'. And then we're not even taken into account he was probably paid in another way and someone else put the bet up. So yea, it all sounds pretty scary, but in reality none of these are arguments have much credibility and none of them would be much of a hindrance for fixing the game. It is possible to be the case you stated, but again, it is not "pretty easy in China" in 2019. Just read some news (e.g. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/07/09/china-crackdown-bitcoin/) and get a sense about how China's finance system these days work on the mechanism of tracking every single dollar of people's daily spending... There will be trace if match-fix is involved, and again, it is under investigation. You make the case that "he could be paid in another way", but again, how? Now the story would be like, someone found a Chinese proxy agent, approached MacSed, had to win his trust (if someone you don't know came to you, say. "dude, want to make some quick cash?" What's your normal response?), found an untraceable way to make the payment, and then, for at most thousands of dollars? Again, I don't believe a 32 year-old (yes, MacSed is that old) would take his daily job and career at risk for such small amount. I make the judgment from a working adult's common sense. I could be proved to be wrong. But before that, just don't be so determined that someone barely staying above MMR 6000 cannot lose to MMR4000 player in a hilarious way. I will shut up from now on since I have made my points. The sad thing is, given how the community had responded, even official investigation result probably won't clear MacSed's name since so many people already rushed to the conclusion. Wait a second ... who ever claimed that it was a non-chinese who paid MacSed for throwing the map ... and it should easily be possible for a chinese to pay another chinese, right? So no cross-national transfer of money would be needed ... and only a few people questioned that a 6k MMR player can lose to a 4k MMR player ... However, the way MacSed lost that game is pretty indicative of intentionally throwing the map ... If it is a Chinese paid MacSed to do so, then why not gambling at a Chinese underground gambling site? Get my point? I am not rushing to any conclusion, just point out all the odd issues beyond the VOD. To go back to my original point, the story sounds more "persuasive or logic" if: (1) not Pinnacle, but a Chinese underground gambling site showed the betting line changes, in this case, this could be a domestic affair, avoiding all the issues I raised. (2) Someone found an established Chinese player, and another much stronger EU players, paid both to let the Chinese player to "match-fix" an unexpected win. Such situation won't trigger China's nationalistic fans' backlash. What we have is the most unlikely situation: a semi-retired player is to match-fix knowing that such action would lead to online harassment from nationalistic fans, do it knowing the game is broadcasted, and after finished being laughed by all friends coming to the tournament. Think about all these factors... I have to say, the money involved must be substantial, which, would leave trace. But as far as we know, such a smallish game won't attract that huge amount of money from the beginning.
Ok, regarding your first point: It is entirely possible (and others have already explained that) that the match-fixer (i.e. the person who paid MacSed to throw the map) placed his bets on a Chinese underground gambling site and that this information then leaked out to other people who placed their bets on a Pinnacle. Regarding your second points: The more people are involved in such a setting, the more likely it is to get detected. Additionally, if you have a much stronger EU player, the betting lines will be much lower (i.e. you will not get such a good return) for the match. Therefore, it is probably more profitable to have a match-up against a weak player. And to invalidate your point further, MacSed might have had a decent chance to make it out of the group. Thus, losing a map against sevent91 does not diminish his chances because he was practically guaranteed to win the third map. However, against a better player, there is the realistic possibility to lose the third map as well. Furthermore, how immense actually was the backlash of the Chinese community after he lost one map against seventy91 (and before all those match-fixing accusations rose to the surface)? If there was no such backlash, then your argument is also pretty much invalidated.
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On March 16 2019 03:05 Pilot912 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2019 02:11 Kaolla wrote:On March 16 2019 00:58 Pilot912 wrote:On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else. Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD. I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen. If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China. We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence. You can tell all you want about an official stance you want, but using crypto and trading in it is still pretty easy in China if you want to and despite online gambling being banned I am willing to bet no one really cares about it and no investigation would ever be launched into a single bet of a few hundred dollars and there is virtually no risk despite there being a 'trace'. And then we're not even taken into account he was probably paid in another way and someone else put the bet up. So yea, it all sounds pretty scary, but in reality none of these are arguments have much credibility and none of them would be much of a hindrance for fixing the game. It is possible to be the case you stated, but again, it is not "pretty easy in China" in 2019. Just read some news (e.g. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/07/09/china-crackdown-bitcoin/) and get a sense about how China's finance system these days work on the mechanism of tracking every single dollar of people's daily spending... There will be trace if match-fix is involved, and again, it is under investigation. You make the case that "he could be paid in another way", but again, how? Now the story would be like, someone found a Chinese proxy agent, approached MacSed, had to win his trust (if someone you don't know came to you, say. "dude, want to make some quick cash?" What's your normal response?), found an untraceable way to make the payment, and then, for at most thousands of dollars? Again, I don't believe a 32 year-old (yes, MacSed is that old) would take his daily job and career at risk for such small amount. I make the judgment from a working adult's common sense. I could be proved to be wrong. But before that, just don't be so determined that someone barely staying above MMR 6000 cannot lose to MMR4000 player in a hilarious way. I will shut up from now on since I have made my points. The sad thing is, given how the community had responded, even official investigation result probably won't clear MacSed's name since so many people already rushed to the conclusion.
Like I said before, I live in China, I have crypto and I know it's not that hard to buy/sell crypto here if you want to and if we're not talking huge amounts. If you are from China you must know that too... Other than that it could be anyone that cooperated with him, not gonna speculate on that and I think it doesn't necessarily have to be a very well thought out plan. It seems like a simple idea, taking a loss for some cash, but as can be seen from the game itself, losing without raising any suspicion is harder than it might seem.
Anyway, to me its absolutely 100% clear he intentionally lost that game and a fix would then be most likely I guess. And no, I don't have 100% proof for that, but that theory fits the story best. I think most of the points raised against this are just not very strong (like your whole bitcoin/bank trouble, which is pretty much non-existent and I feel like you should know that if you live in China or have lived there).
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On March 16 2019 04:14 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2019 03:05 Pilot912 wrote:On March 16 2019 02:11 Kaolla wrote:On March 16 2019 00:58 Pilot912 wrote:On March 15 2019 23:07 Kaolla wrote:On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote:On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China.
A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do.
Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this.
So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this.
Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. The Chinese government has gone through a Crypto Crack down (https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/23/china-continues-its-crypto-crackdown-blocks-public-access-to-offshore-exchanges/), precisely because its strong stance against "untraceable money movements". Using crypto currency in this case won't be as easy as somewhere else. Again, back to the bank route, you can do foreign currency exchange and send money in and out of China, but I just don't see an easy way to do it without leave a trace, and this is known to most Chinese. That's why the "follow the money" suggestions works better than lynching around a VOD. I don't think for such a small game that a lot of money would be involved, and considering all the hurdles/additional costs to do this secretly, I made the argument that it's unlikely happen. If we are talking about a Chinese underground gamble site, then the story would sounds more reasonable. But Pinnacle is an open oversea site. Online Gambling is completely banned in China. We do have a questionable VOD and weird betting pattern, but official investigation tracing the money should be the crucial evidence. You can tell all you want about an official stance you want, but using crypto and trading in it is still pretty easy in China if you want to and despite online gambling being banned I am willing to bet no one really cares about it and no investigation would ever be launched into a single bet of a few hundred dollars and there is virtually no risk despite there being a 'trace'. And then we're not even taken into account he was probably paid in another way and someone else put the bet up. So yea, it all sounds pretty scary, but in reality none of these are arguments have much credibility and none of them would be much of a hindrance for fixing the game. It is possible to be the case you stated, but again, it is not "pretty easy in China" in 2019. Just read some news (e.g. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/07/09/china-crackdown-bitcoin/) and get a sense about how China's finance system these days work on the mechanism of tracking every single dollar of people's daily spending... There will be trace if match-fix is involved, and again, it is under investigation. You make the case that "he could be paid in another way", but again, how? Now the story would be like, someone found a Chinese proxy agent, approached MacSed, had to win his trust (if someone you don't know came to you, say. "dude, want to make some quick cash?" What's your normal response?), found an untraceable way to make the payment, and then, for at most thousands of dollars? Again, I don't believe a 32 year-old (yes, MacSed is that old) would take his daily job and career at risk for such small amount. I make the judgment from a working adult's common sense. I could be proved to be wrong. But before that, just don't be so determined that someone barely staying above MMR 6000 cannot lose to MMR4000 player in a hilarious way. I will shut up from now on since I have made my points. The sad thing is, given how the community had responded, even official investigation result probably won't clear MacSed's name since so many people already rushed to the conclusion. Like I said before, I live in China, I have crypto and I know it's not that hard to buy/sell crypto here if you want to and if we're not talking huge amounts. If you are from China you must know that too... Other than that it could be anyone that cooperated with him, not gonna speculate on that and I think it doesn't necessarily have to be a very well thought out plan. It seems like a simple idea, taking a loss for some cash, but as can be seen from the game itself, losing without raising any suspicion is harder than it might seem. Anyway, to me its absolutely 100% clear he intentionally lost that game and a fix would then be most likely I guess. And no, I don't have 100% proof for that, but that theory fits the story best. I think most of the points raised against this are just not very strong (like your whole bitcoin/bank trouble, which is pretty much non-existent and I feel like you should know that if you live in China or have lived there).
OK, let's end the conversation in "disagree with respect". You can do crypto currencies in China, but back to my point, for ordinary folks, I won't see how someone would bother the troubles only for thousands of dollars.
If you live in China, and can read Chinese (with Google translation), check out http://bbs.niuyou5.com/forum-161-1.html (where most Scboy fans discuss SC2 games), and MacSed's weibo (iGMacSed, I believe). His loss already got hundreds of humiliating posts, laughing at him for "losing China's national face" (yes, it's weird, but that's the mindset within China's SC2 circle), simply given the population base of Chinese game community. Everybody do esport in China know such consequence.
That's why my argument was that there has to be a substantial amount of money to persuade MacSed to take such a humiliating loss.
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Pilot912, do you think that macsed did or did not deliberately lose the game?
Whether he was persuaded by a substantial amount of money or not does not matter.
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