Keep calm, make workers, spend your money and play other noobs for the fun of it:
https://discord.gg/c5Hkga
Forum Index > BW General |
LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1265 Posts
Keep calm, make workers, spend your money and play other noobs for the fun of it: https://discord.gg/c5Hkga | ||
Rodya
546 Posts
On January 24 2019 18:44 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: I got into bw in 1999 because of LANs and private bnet servers. In my college a lot of people were playing and learning the game was a fun journey because you did it shoulder to shoulder with your friends. No way in hell i would do that alone even back then, not to say today. So unless there is an ecosystem where groups of people, communities, colleges, camps - whatever, do it together, i don't see any possible growth potential among youngsters The ecosystem is called teamliquid.net and you're in it right now. The key to getting younger players playing BW (in the foreign scene) is to get them posting on this website. | ||
Bonyth
Poland499 Posts
1) need to be a millionere, sponsoring money tournaments for new blood only (in schools mostly i guess, between schools, collegues etc). 2) Perhaps meta changes, "balance" patches, so everyone has a fresh start to crack the new meta. Of course we don't have any number ones, and even point 2 alone wouldn't be enough to bring a lot of new players. | ||
Cptbeefy
Ireland13 Posts
On January 24 2019 22:55 ProllTarodies wrote: Brood War was never dead and it never will be even if I have to play myself on 2 computers. Keep calm, make workers, spend your money and play other noobs for the fun of it: https://discord.gg/c5Hkga exactly. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
BW will die out, simply because there will be no one who will play it anymore... Broodwar is already dead. Its a species with too few breeding partners to continue. We are extinct, because the community is made up primarily of almost religiously fanatical twats who can countenance no meta changes, no balance changes, no maps for newbies, no reforms whatever that could make the game interesting and engageable and learnable for newbs. But wait! Theres dozens and dozens of videos of people instructing newbies how to do a pro build that leads to a 30 minute macro fest! Huh? I mean the fact that anyone thinks a few video guides are going to bring new blood into a game that is fundamentally not enjoyable to play at lower levels, is absurd. All the guides in the world arent going to make the experience fun, and for a new player to come on and play on absurdly large maps like eddy, doing pro builds he cant get his mind around, all the while occasionally running into 1500-2000 mmr players, well, he isnt going to enjoy himself to say the least! And i can say this from the perspective of someone who actually has a lot of friends who previously played broodwar and tried to make the transition into melee, people too, who are inclined towards rts games. The reality is, if the meta and maps that are common today were common ten years ago, I would never have picked up the game. I suspect a lot of people who have left the community out of boredom [more than the fanatics would like to admit] or even still play like me, would not have either. On January 24 2019 17:41 Jealous wrote: What changed? Between when I picked up melee in earnest 13 years ago and now:Show nested quote + On January 24 2019 15:53 pebble444 wrote: Its fair and square to say that getting new people into this game has been hard for the past decade... However when I started playing we had tools and community support in the D ranks Teamleague; Honestly I do not think I would have started playing if it had not been for that; For Example the BSL is a great example of what zzzero and others are doing to support the foreign community at a high level, not to mention the entertainment it provides and the motivation for players to ladder, improve and compete. However that regards more high level play. It wasn't born yesterday either, I think remembering it was based around the Polish community which has always had a large player pool, so that was in their favour from the start, and they succeeded in building a community and eventually bringing it out available internationally. I see invisible barriers that maybe people who have been involved in the community for so long don' t see... One of the things that I hear often as advice to newcomers who come to watch a stream and have played a couple of games is "go to Liquipedia" or "study a pros build and practice it" or "ladder it out" I think its all advice that is given with a good heart but actually terrible. The information available on Liquipedia is overwhelming for the beginner, even the beginners portal. Honestly I got lost in there. Studying a build requires prior knowledge of broodwar that a beginner simply does not have. And laddering is not a friendly place, and not a place where people play in a standard way. What I think new people need is a place to meet and play against each other. When you play against someone of your same skill then I don' t think newcomers will find it "too hard" , they need to have personal interactions with people who can explain something as simple as how sending your miners to work in the beginning of the game works, which is a complicated process that involves insta-splitting. This comes second nature because we have all done it and seen it a million times, but imagine someone who sees it for the first time. As I said now its not a problem, but it may be a problem, and a huge one in the future. Its a complicated scenario furthermore, because there are no examples of past e-sports that have been going on for so long and so no one can really know how things will turn out. You cannot just drink from the well and if it never rains expect it to replenish itself, because it won' t And it would be a shame because I think something we can all agree on is that most if not all of the people who do things for this community do it out of sheer love for the game, and this is something pretty unique to Starcraft Again, the resources available now are better than they have ever been, and yet we all still managed to learn this game and get better and play it for years without them. What's changed? -The size of the average map has effectively doubled. I dont mean the literal size of the map for anyone slow, I mean the effective size. Between rush distance being increased and naturals being made smaller and third bases being made more perfunctory and other means to enlarge general distance, we are playing on, essentially, bland, large, safe maps. Circuit breaker is only a few steps removed from BGH in its strategical simplicity. Gone are the days of monty hall or even fucking python. If the map isnt a bland smattering of money thrown every which way, it aint good enough for the community! -ironically i think the match maker hurt things quite a bit, given it doesnt even work. I played a game with someone who didnt know how lurkers worked the same day I played an s ranked player. This was a couple months ago, maybe they fixed it a bit since then, but I doubt it. Combine that with match makers inability to race pick aaaaand you have a game where new players play on giant, indistinguishable maps, using builds they cant actually utilize often against players so much better than them the game was pointless. But wait! Theres video guides. ???? | ||
Lorch
Germany3657 Posts
I mean even if everyone who hasn't gone to the military yet would leave today, we'd get an ajeas vs amateurs ASL. And if you'd get something like a Nada vs Nalra finals, it might actually break viewership records. Plus military is only ~18 months now, afaik bisu will come back this year already. As in the foreign scene? That's a tough one. I don't think it'll ever get back to where it was pre-sc2. And even that would be considered a small niche nowadays. BW never had the cultural impact in the west as it had in korea. I mean when you watch ASL, you see a ton of teenagers in the audience, and the amateurs we have seen also seem quite young. I think there are very few people in the west around that age who follow BW, let alone play it. | ||
WGT-Baal
France3155 Posts
On January 25 2019 01:33 Lorch wrote: As for the Korean scene, you can just look at the ASL qualifiers and see enough amateurs to fill a hole bunch of tournaments. I think even when some of the current top players go to the military, we have enough amateurs + older players to requalify. I mean look at the current ASL, you have Flash, Jaedong, Sea and Shuttle out, and bam we get amateurs and Nada in. I am more than fine by that. Also there is always Rain, who doesn't have to go to the military. BW will always survive in Korea. I mean in 2012, all pros were taken from the game and it still survived. There'll always be people like Sonic or Britney who love BW enough to keep it going. I mean even if everyone who hasn't gone to the military yet would leave today, we'd get an ajeas vs amateurs ASL. And if you'd get something like a Nada vs Nalra finals, it might actually break viewership records. Plus military is only ~18 months now, afaik bisu will come back this year already. As in the foreign scene? That's a tough one. I don't think it'll ever get back to where it was pre-sc2. And even that would be considered a small niche nowadays. BW never had the cultural impact in the west as it had in korea. I mean when you watch ASL, you see a ton of teenagers in the audience, and the amateurs we have seen also seem quite young. I think there are very few people in the west around that age who follow BW, let alone play it. to add to that point with a personal anecdote, I went to Korea a couple times last year and at some point I had nothing to do waiting for a train for 4hours. So I crossed the street and went to a PC bang. now I noticed 2 things: first of all there were highschoolers/undergrads playing as I entered. And secondly as I started playing a couple ladder games, a couple young lads came up to me and asked to play. They looked like they were 16. My korean s not good enough (and by that I mean it sucks) to actually talk to them but they were really excited about the game and it sounded like a bunch of their friends were playing too once in a while. So I think the game is still fairly popular in Korea, and for the western scene the CPL is amazing and I see many relatively new players there, even if sc2 sorta split the scene and a lot of people grew too old to actually play much (happens to a lot of my friends) I m still amazed it doesnt actually take that long to get a match on the ladder, considering the age of the game. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On January 24 2019 18:12 pebble444 wrote: As other people have pointed out, the other games available have changed, as well as probably the way younger kids are growing up have changed, for one none of us who are 25 and over ever remotely was using a smartphone, whereas nowadays I see 2 years old watching videos on youtube.... things in the outer world have changed; I am not targeting you Jealous or anyone or the community, please do not take my words as a request for someone to do something; Rather I am trying to bring awareness to the topic and stimulate a discussion, and yeah, maybe my words are hard to you, I' m not sure why, but I' m trying to expose my point of view strongly I admit; Yes, the resources today are better than they have ever been, and that I believe is a positive thing for people already involved for years in this community, because you and me would know how to navigate to get that information quickly and how to apply it, wheres to a beginner it might not be the case. More knowledge and information does not necessarily mean a better learning experience. I don't feel targeted or attacked, I'm just not understanding what you're trying to say. Sure, things could be better - but things could always be better, no? Aren't things getting better already? If you admit that there are more resources now than there ever was before, again I ask what is it that allowed for people who got into BW 10 years ago that doesn't also apply to people who are getting into BW right now? | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1266 Posts
However it is #2 viewed esports behind league of legends right now and is constantly in top 10 ranking in PC bang. A lot of people who has always been playing is still playing and there was that 1 high school only tourny while back | ||
Ryzel
United States474 Posts
If anything, BW takes more effort to FEEL good playing it, because all anyone sees are pro replays and they hold themselves to that standard. You watch an OW pro and think “I can conceive myself getting 2 headshots and capping a point” and define your sense of “good at this game” as such, and most likely won’t feel disappointed for very long (since its more easily doable on lesser skilled players). But if you watch a BW pro and think “I can play that fast” and define your sense of “good at this game” as such, you’re going to be extremely disappointed because it’s just hard to do regardless of the skill level of your opponent. On top of that, outside of Korea there’s no groups of people getting excited about BW, it’s usually just one person revisiting the game or thinking “eh I’ll try it out”. With no social support there’s practically no point, and beginners are not directed to good resources or communities to help them or share their love of the game. You look at games like Fortnite and they’re like a playground. You can build shit and do random stuff that’s not even related to winning the game; Minecraft was the same way. Younger players like the free form stuff. TLDR, this is what needs to happen... 1) Hype BGH games. Get fun streamers genuinely excited at 20 carriers on the screen with interceptors buzzing around and 100 hydras being melted by storms and tanks. Maybe doing a featured streamers thing with BGH nr10 maps only. 2) Put links to TeamLiquid, CPL, and FBW Discord on the battle.net launcher. 3) Not likely to happen, but an outreach team that hosts LAN style parties with BW and tons of BGH maps going to random high schools or colleges. | ||
Psyonic_Reaver
United States4318 Posts
On January 24 2019 18:44 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: In my college a lot of people were playing and learning the game was a fun journey because you did it shoulder to shoulder with your friends. No way in hell i would do that alone even back then, not to say today. If it wasn't for me getting into casting back in 2008 and making friends with the [Media] guys, especially Machine, G5 and LzGamer and Future and Xeris when they were in [LighT] and actually learning the damn game and recognizing timings, build orders and making smarter decisions. I probably wouldn't be playing anymore and if I were - definitely not in any type of Ranked melee. I own my current abilities to the patience they showed to me back then as I struggled to improve. I'm not saying it's impossible to teach newer players as older players because if it's the one thing we've learned is patience in learning the game and that you will lose WAY more than you win until it finally "clicks" on how it all starts coming together. I can't really explain it. One day it just "clicked" and my skilled jumped almost overnight out of Iccup D's into C and lower B eventually back then. Most newer players do not have that kind of patience to "grind" RTS games anymore because you're looking at 10-20min per game vs many games today that are much more rewarding in that same amount of time. | ||
QuadroX
385 Posts
The community is great. Lots of people help me and answer my stupid questions on discord. Why I picked this game? Coz it's hard AF. That's what stands out of most modern games like Fortnite, Overwatch, SC2, WC3. You play against yourself all the time. You suffer hard and every victory is the most satisfying this in the world. We might be a minority coz it takes guts to keep playing despite being total shit in the game. | ||
Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
On January 25 2019 05:12 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:Most newer players do not have that kind of patience to "grind" RTS games anymore because you're looking at 10-20min per game vs many games today that are much more rewarding in that same amount of time. It's not just limited to games. In the US, graduates are quitting jobs after 6 months because they aren't having an impact. It's a problem with the generation as a whole. The idea of putting in constant effort for long term gratification is completely foreign to them. As such, any endeavor has little chance to progress beyond proficiency. I don't know the solution, but it spans far beyond gaming. | ||
iFU.pauline
France1389 Posts
What the problem is and what I would like people to discuss in this thread is the lack of a structure to support new players, new blood, new generations especially younger players that see the game, and would like to play it on a competitive level. What I mean, is that basically there are no new names out there, either in Korea, or outside, meaning there is no support structure to someone new who has never played who wants to rise and shine, improve and get to the top levels. This is the real challenge I believe, and if a solution is not found, in the long run, BW will die out, simply because there will be no one who will play it anymore... I usually don't like long ass post but this one deserved it. The lack of structure you are talking about, I think was way more relevant before than now, let me give you an example, I started in 1999, 56k internet 20h/month, no decent ladder whatsoever, blizzard's ladder was on "fast" mode and totally swarmed with hackers, then in 2001 1.08 came out, great we have replays now, but problem, there was only a couple of them released every once in a while. I remember community jumping on new nada boxer yellow reps like it was gold. And those reps were the only decent "howto" you could find. If you were lucky, you would find other players real life at the nearest internet cafe but that's assuming you were not living in a god damn village and had money for it. Years later, I think in 2004 wgtour ladder came out, great now that is starting to look like something. You had to find an opponent, create a game manually on their page, play the game, report the game uploading the replay.. Forget about launchers, antihacks or whatever. Keep in mind that already 6 years have passed since I had played my first game, a generation of top players already "retired" at that time and you could already read "bw is dead" blablabla, I mean same old shit. So now let's skip to 2019, we have 24/7 first person world class players stream, well established websites where community can gather and post threads like you just did, petabytes of data including, vods (with english translation please...), replays, guides, plugins and many more things... Foreign tournament streams almost if not on a weekly basis where everyone is welcome to join. A remastered game with good graphics for sensitive minds, fucking auto match making and finally, 20 years of gameplay knowledge built by thousands of players... So I really don't get the "lack of structure". What more do you want? Someone knocking at your door saying: "Hi, I like starcraft, I am about the same level as you, I want to play at the same time as you, I have a clan with players just like you, we speak the same language as you, do you want to be our friends and join us? | ||
senseno
2 Posts
| ||
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
The things you wrote are not really relevant here. A lot has changed since the 2000s... There weren't so many games around so it is obvious that you were trying harder for the one you chose and seem to like. I could argue about these a lot but I don't think it would be useful somehow... Hence my question in the first line. Regarding the more useful part of your post: yes there are all these resources but there is something called "searching a needle in a haystack". This may not be the best comparison but it is really hard to find the useful information at first. Ok there are streams, so? A newcomer should watch a guy play high level SC where he can't even follow what he is doing with his eye let alone his mind? It doesn't help. If he asks in the chat and he gets a useful reply then ok, but... I think you are missing the point that a newcomer in 2000 was totally different than today regarding a lot of things. You could say that "we don't want those people, they don't work hard enough, not BW-worthy" (as sponge-worthy in Seinfeld). Well then as many said here the players will die out. But I agree with that the problem is not the lack of structure, it's more how it is organized. (Altough the main problem is that not many people start playing SC...) | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On January 25 2019 07:35 bferi wrote: If yes then how should we do it? This is what I've been wanting to see answered myself. Pebble and others in this thread and prior ones will say vague things like "we need more structure" but I don't see any feasible solutions presented. I'm sure if there was a really great idea, there would be some people willing to put in the effort, but just bemoaning the current state of affairs without going into detail as to how to fix the situation is pretty pointless IMO. | ||
iCCup.Trent
Argentina450 Posts
On January 25 2019 06:59 iFU.pauline wrote: So I really don't get the "lack of structure". What more do you want? Someone knocking at your door saying: "Hi, I like starcraft, I am about the same level as you, I want to play at the same time as you, I have a clan with players just like you, we speak the same language as you, do you want to be our friends and join us? When we were young the gaming landscape, community, etc, was all very different. I 100% honestly think this last joke you made should not be a joke. Why wouldn't it be great if it was exactly as you exemplified? Recently I had a long holiday and decided to try to level up a little. It wasn't going very well but then I got closer to a couple of guys from the community that were very easy going and decided to altruistically help me, and that got me from high D to low B in <3 weeks. I think we should all pitch in with what we can to teach, be inviting, easy going, as much as we can, regardless of whether it was harder for us back then. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On January 25 2019 07:51 iCCup.Trent wrote: Show nested quote + On January 25 2019 06:59 iFU.pauline wrote: So I really don't get the "lack of structure". What more do you want? Someone knocking at your door saying: "Hi, I like starcraft, I am about the same level as you, I want to play at the same time as you, I have a clan with players just like you, we speak the same language as you, do you want to be our friends and join us? When we were young the gaming landscape, community, etc, was all very different. I 100% honestly think this last joke you made should not be a joke. Why wouldn't it be great if it was exactly as you exemplified? Recently I had a long holiday and decided to try to level up a little. It wasn't going very well but then I got closer to a couple of guys from the community that were very easy going and decided to altruistically help me, and that got me from high D to low B in <3 weeks. I think we should all pitch in with what we can to teach, be inviting, easy going, as much as we can, regardless of whether it was harder for us back then. I don't think anyone here is arguing against helping people? | ||
Greth
Belgium318 Posts
I've been one of the few people who have ever consistently casted 'bad' games of BW. I've casted 'newbie tourneys' and generally - through attempted humor - tried to show people Starcraft outside of pro and even C+ play. There are a lot of paradigm shifts that need to happen to make BW a 'large' game. It isn't impossible, but certainly improbable. My main argumentation for the return of BW to a stable playerbase - several thousand, perhaps around the 10k mark (outside of korea) is that 'kids today' are already subdivided into various groups of gamer that already enjoy the mechanics that BW consists of. People don't balk at terrible UIs or shy away from terrible graphics (although RM cleaned things up). There is a whole 'retro scene' that just can't get enough of the 'old school hard core' as long as it is only pretending to be old. You also have Dark Souls, and a whole bunch of frustrating games that everyone can't seem to fellate enough on reddit. Dark Souls sort of alleviates the issue with games like BW or Quake: the large amount of hidden skill that can't be taught through playing the game, but must come from outside sources. Quake has strafe jumping and even rocket jumping. BW has build orders and mechanical 'tricks'. If people don't learn this hidden skill, then they start playing the game in '98 and you get games like the ones I'm casting. I already wrote an article about this called 'Preventing the Starcraft Dark Age' - right before remastered came out. To jabber on about that topic a bit. And I think, now that Blizzard has come and gone, I'm disappointed (but not surprised in the least) that Blizzard didn't take this time and their endless budget to at least give a fucking link to a Day9 video in the fucking game. (Or a micro tutorial or 2 ... I know, utopian dreams). I think right now our biggest adversary is Starcraft's legacy. The game is one of the most well know franchises on the planet - including SC2 - and everyone is too fucking scared to play it. Same with Quake. It's reputation is of pure hardcore. You don't play this game to have fun, you play it to get your ass beat for a decade before even having a grasp of just how much you suck. And it attracts only those types of people. My Don Quixote quest has been largely hidden from the mainstream. I have 2k subs after 10 years. Mostly cuz I'm bad at what I do and I never cared much for self promotion - I also have a series of cult followers that kill random members of my fanbase each time I upload a video. But ... I have always shown that normal human beings also play Starcraft - and that not everyone who picks up the game needs to aspire to be Flash. We play FFAs so all the noobs can gang up on Jealous so he quits the channel again. They get to play the game, see all levels of low level SC (of which there are MANY) and have a good time with real people in a discord voice chat. And when they're done they're around in the channel, to talk about the game (and not cue up instantly for the next one). Games like Quake were played by thousands on LANs - casually. Brood War was played casually! And we were OKAY WITH BEING BAD! But now, with ranked matchmaking you are constantly put into competition with people. There is a winner, and a loser, and that's where the relationship ends. We didn't give a shit about ladder. We played some BW in our channels, and then played some UMS and then some FFA, or 3v3 or 2v2. BW was ALL we played, in various forms. And that community feeling is now gone. "How can I improve." "I want to be C+ by next month!" "I'm grinding ladder." Where is "I'm having fun."? Isn't the basis of every sport that kids can play it in the schoolyard? The kid that starts crying on the football pitch because someone didn't give him a pass like De Bruyne - or someone didn't dunk it like LeBron (is that right?)... Nobody thought like that. So why do we have to do the builds like Flash? Let's first try to find people's natural level before they grind themselves into a burnout. Before they eventually realize they're forever stuck on C+ and leave forever. There is an unhealthy split between casual and competitive, and in BW, casual died. In SC2 casual never existed. We were talking more about Ladder anxiety than about playing the game, because everything was recorded. And when you were burned out on ladder, you took a break. I've been C- on a good day since 2003. And that is normal. I've been a mid level competitive player in every shooter I've ever touched, never good at BW. And that's a ... Maturity... That has mostly vanished from games today. If BW is to ever grow again, we need to bring back the noobs. Casually. Let them roam in '98 and slowly bring them in. Will this be possible without Blizzard? Yes. But it will take a long time and a lot of motivated people. If Blizzard decides to grace us with another divine visitation after yet another decade of silence - that and a few thousand bucks, and some expansion on what Remastered is right now (not maintained by a skeleton crew) - a few twitch sponsorships - then things could go very fast indeed. And because I've never been marketable - I will accept payment to never post a video again. | ||
| ||
ESL Pro Tour
Spring 2024 - EU Playoffs D3
[ Submit Event ] |
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Dota 2 Counter-Strike Heroes of the Storm Other Games Organizations StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
CSO Cup
Replay Cast
Sparkling Tuna Cup
ESL Pro Tour
World Team League
ESL Pro Tour
BSL
Gypsy vs Bonyth
Mihu vs XiaoShuai
ESL Open Cup
ESL Open Cup
ESL Open Cup
[ Show More ] ESL Pro Tour
ESL Pro Tour
ESL Pro Tour
ESL Pro Tour
Online Event
ESL Pro Tour
Hatchery Cup
BSL
|
|