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On February 08 2016 02:10 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 01:41 Sholip wrote:On February 08 2016 00:58 NonY wrote:On February 08 2016 00:51 InfCereal wrote:On February 08 2016 00:38 NonY wrote:On February 07 2016 23:42 InfCereal wrote:On February 07 2016 23:18 NonY wrote: I reported this bug in Wings of Liberty beta with respect to psionic storm. I wouldn't count on a fix coming anytime soon. It's not technically a bug. The engine is working as intended. Uhh, no? This is just misinformation. I'm going to assume you're just confused. The 'bug' as you call it, is not being able to select the area below the air unit. The reason for that is because the cliff is displayed over it. This little feature is called "perspective" and is pretty important in 3D games. Yeah you're a fucking idiot not contributing anything useful at all. I don't give a shit about the dumb trivia you manufacture from whatever technical definitions of words you decide to select and whatever idiotic assumptions you make about the intentions of the game developers. I'm not sure why the aggressive tone is needed, but actually, he is right. And it's a pretty important contribution, too, considering that what the thread title calls a "bug" is actually an unavoidable consequence of a 3D world projected onto the 2D screen, which basically refutes the assumption that the issue is a bug. Also, Blizzard probably don't want us to have to change our camera's perspective (it would be indeed absurd), but sometimes it is the only way you can click there (even though, even in the case in the video, simply moving the camera without actually rotating did help), and the problem is not with the game engine, clearly. If something, it could interpreted as the problem with the map, but you cannot expect maps to not have such double cliffs at all. How is his contribution a meaningful one because of the point about a 3rd world on a 2d screen when the fact that it's an issue of a 3rd world on a 2d screen was already known before he posted? He came in after that was already established to try to steer it off topic with some implication that only engines can have bugs but not maps and some weird shit about how a failure is not a bug if it's an accepted drawback to the engine they intended to create. Who fucking cares? It's off topic bullshit. If you can tell me what exact unique contribution he made in either of his posts that helps us to resolve this issue then please explain it. The problem in the video isn't about double cliffs exactly. The mapmaker wants an area where no ground units can go and he chose to drop the terrain off for aesthetic purposes. That issue could be fixed just by sacrificing the aesthetics of the map. The cliff isn't serving any gameplay purpose there that impassable ground terrain at the same elevation wouldn't do. The scenario in the video is the one commonly disruptive to gameplay because flying units can easily enter and exit and control all around these areas. Ground units attempting to do the same thing (hugging against a double cliff to avoid area abilities) are not as big of an issue because of the difficulty of maneuvering them. I think his point was that it is not a bug, because it works as intended. It really does not contribute to a solution to the problem, but considering some have claimed it to be a bug, I would say it's still a contribution to the whole topic. But maybe it's just me interpreting "contribution" differently.
You are right in that the issue could be fixed with having an impassable extension of the main (this means exactly that the issue is due to the double cliff height of the main), but to be honest, you rarely see this on maps and it would be a great sacrifice of aesthetics.
Or, as others mentioned, an invisible extension of the main could be applied around it. The problem with this, is that where multiple cliff levels are adjacent to a dead space area, both cliff levels should be extended invisibly, which would, on the boundary of the two invisible extensions, lead to another cliff, but this time invisible, which would make it even worse. It may not be a problem on this map, but if this were to become a general fix, it could be even more troublesome on some maps.
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Well Nony was being aggressive cause the other guy was being obnoxious ("I'm going to assume you're just confused." Eh, you're not going to make any friends with that).
Some players would like some consistency in regards to gameplay, even if there were intended/unintended consequences as a result of the 3d engine. This isn't the problem of taking elevation differences into account when shooting down your target. So yea, should be fixed, or just remove the aesthetic walls.
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I think his point was that it is not a bug, because it works as intended. One system is working as intended but the result is not what's intended. I don't understand why making this distinction helps us resolve this issue. I especially don't understand how insisting that it isn't a bug because we understand the 3d world -> 2d screen issue is making progress on anything. We need to understand how the systems work and we need to judge if the negative effects on gameplay need to be corrected. The concerns about whether it's a bug and for which system is it a bug and about what's intended are tangential. The fact is that Blizzard has been aware of its significance on gameplay for almost six years, or even longer internally. I'm sure it was something that occurred to them as a potential problem before they even created the engine. There are countless imperfections but the only ones that matter are the ones affecting functionality.
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Ahhhh, I know this issue, I reported it a while back, but OP this is not directly a problem of the cliffs, this is an issue generated by the liberators losing their Yellow Flyer Helper Line
It the line disapears randomly when some liberators siege up and then never comes back, and other times it works perfectly, clearly a bug.
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On February 08 2016 03:07 Uvantak wrote:Ahhhh, I know this issue, I reported it a while back, but OP this is not directly a problem of the cliffs, this is an issue generated by the liberators losing their Yellow Flyer Helper Line It the line disapears randomly when some liberators siege up and then never comes back, and other times it works perfectly, clearly a bug. Well, even if the Liberator had no flyer helper for whatever reason, it should still be targetable. The problem is, you can't click its position because it's behind the cliff. But maybe the two things are connected in a way, so that the flyer helper disappears when it would point to a location invisible behind a cliff? (Kinda like saying, fuck your flyer helper, why would you need it if you can't target me anyway?) It seems to me, although the video quality is not the best, so I may be wrong, that the flyer helper reappears once the camera is rotated, so it seems to confirm my suspicions.
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Uvantak:
The helper line is there, its gets lost in the 1080 P to 480P conversion youtube is doing.
So this is not a bug per see, but something that still is very hard to do fix manually (rotating the screen or knowing the fact that it will be possible to target the liberator if you slide the camera more to the left).
Still I think there is nothing more to discuss here, we now know why this happens and how to target those awful air units, even though it perhaps should be easier to do.
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On February 08 2016 02:37 riotjune wrote: Well Nony was being aggressive cause the other guy was being obnoxious ("I'm going to assume you're just confused." Eh, you're not going to make any friends with that).
Some players would like some consistency in regards to gameplay, even if there were intended/unintended consequences as a result of the 3d engine. This isn't the problem of taking elevation differences into account when shooting down your target. So yea, should be fixed, or just remove the aesthetic walls. Still no reason to abuse the fact that he can´t be reported and be insulting.
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On February 08 2016 03:55 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 02:37 riotjune wrote: Well Nony was being aggressive cause the other guy was being obnoxious ("I'm going to assume you're just confused." Eh, you're not going to make any friends with that).
Some players would like some consistency in regards to gameplay, even if there were intended/unintended consequences as a result of the 3d engine. This isn't the problem of taking elevation differences into account when shooting down your target. So yea, should be fixed, or just remove the aesthetic walls. Still no reason to abuse the fact that he can´t be reported and be insulting. The guy was trying to be disruptive to the thread and showed an attitude first. We're better off with him not saying anything. Contribute and you can get away with some colorful language. Make it your goal to disrupt productive discussion and you shouldn't expect anyone to be respectful to you. I can certainly get in trouble, even get banned. There are precedents. But whatever impoliteness I indulge in has been tolerated because I've actually put a lot of effort into advancing discussions, getting things figured out and improving things, as well as providing content, for years. Anyway now this is a disgusting tangent. I've already contributed as much as I can so I'll let it go now. Mods can defend themselves and if they tell me I'm crossing the line then I'll respect it.
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One thing I've learned over the years here- if Nony says you're an idiot, then you are certifiably an idiot.
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On February 07 2016 23:18 NonY wrote: I reported this bug in Wings of Liberty beta with respect to psionic storm. I wouldn't count on a fix coming anytime soon.
I did as well with respect to EMP, nukes, dropships not dropping even when they are within bounds to drop due to cliff proximity and naturally sentry turret cant be deployed here either.
This is a glitch which is a bug exploit, it is an exploit that happens when the azimuth doesnt cover the terrain you need to target, and the fix is to just make abilities like psi storm/corrosive bile target units like seeker missile does.
You are placing a unit in an untargetable area, a glitch. You cant target a unit over a certain area, a bug. A bug done on purpose with consistency is a glitch.
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I noticed that couple of weeks ago, posted on Twitter and tagged Blizzard Support, they should make flyer units helper size at same level as ground. It wouldn't be good only for Corrosive Bile, but for other similar abilities...
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On February 08 2016 00:58 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 00:51 InfCereal wrote:On February 08 2016 00:38 NonY wrote:On February 07 2016 23:42 InfCereal wrote:On February 07 2016 23:18 NonY wrote: I reported this bug in Wings of Liberty beta with respect to psionic storm. I wouldn't count on a fix coming anytime soon. It's not technically a bug. The engine is working as intended. Uhh, no? This is just misinformation. I'm going to assume you're just confused. The 'bug' as you call it, is not being able to select the area below the air unit. The reason for that is because the cliff is displayed over it. This little feature is called "perspective" and is pretty important in 3D games. Yeah you're a fucking idiot not contributing anything useful at all. I don't give a shit about the dumb trivia you manufacture from whatever technical definitions of words you decide to select and whatever idiotic assumptions you make about the intentions of the game developers.
lol no mod is going to punish him for that i guess. good ole liquid bias
adding on to what he said, that while technically a bug, if the cliff was facing the player it would not be a problem. only when it is facing away from the player does it hide the flying unit helper and block the ai abilities. i think that is what he was trying to point out, albeit with the passive-aggressive smiley.
nony def stepped out of line there no excuse for talking like a bully.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Well, two wrongs don't make a right Nony.
Anyway this has been a problem since WC3 as well. It is the way Blizzard designed their engines. It is stupid, it needs to be fixed. When targeting air units with a spell, you shouldn't have to click the ground they are over, you should be able to click on them. The perspective given by Blizzard games makes it difficult to figure out where air are over, even with the flyer helper.
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On February 08 2016 06:02 Bastinian wrote:I noticed that couple of weeks ago, posted on Twitter and tagged Blizzard Support, they should make flyer units helper size at same level as ground. It wouldn't be good only for Corrosive Bile, but for other similar abilities... https://twitter.com/BastinianSC2/status/691675306416082944
that would create an issue with multi leveled maps because there isnt always one ground level
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On February 08 2016 03:07 Uvantak wrote:Ahhhh, I know this issue, I reported it a while back, but OP this is not directly a problem of the cliffs, this is an issue generated by the liberators losing their Yellow Flyer Helper Line It the line disapears randomly when some liberators siege up and then never comes back, and other times it works perfectly, clearly a bug.
actually it is both the issue with the cliff and the flying unit helper line.
the lines aare not "randomly" disappearing. they are being visually blocked by the cliff in that direction. the flying unit helper lines are always shown on the lowest ground possible. in that image, the line is directed all the way down to the lowest part of the map.
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On February 08 2016 04:06 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2016 03:55 Tresher wrote:On February 08 2016 02:37 riotjune wrote: Well Nony was being aggressive cause the other guy was being obnoxious ("I'm going to assume you're just confused." Eh, you're not going to make any friends with that).
Some players would like some consistency in regards to gameplay, even if there were intended/unintended consequences as a result of the 3d engine. This isn't the problem of taking elevation differences into account when shooting down your target. So yea, should be fixed, or just remove the aesthetic walls. Still no reason to abuse the fact that he can´t be reported and be insulting. The guy was trying to be disruptive to the thread and showed an attitude first. We're better off with him not saying anything. Contribute and you can get away with some colorful language. Make it your goal to disrupt productive discussion and you shouldn't expect anyone to be respectful to you. I can certainly get in trouble, even get banned. There are precedents. But whatever impoliteness I indulge in has been tolerated because I've actually put a lot of effort into advancing discussions, getting things figured out and improving things, as well as providing content, for years. Anyway now this is a disgusting tangent. I've already contributed as much as I can so I'll let it go now. Mods can defend themselves and if they tell me I'm crossing the line then I'll respect it. While I agree that leniency should be showed to people who contribute when they mess up a bit, I still think you need to show some manners and not blow up on the guy who disagrees with you just because you know you can get away with it.
To the matter at hand tho, be it intended or not, it should be made so the liberators are targetable no matter over what terrain as long as they're in range. On the other hand, can't wait for some ladder games to try it out, might finally get out of platinum
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On February 08 2016 07:03 sc2chronic wrote:that would create an issue with multi leveled maps because there isnt always one ground level
Specifically for such air only areas. This way its causing issues. In that match I had only access to Ravagers so I couldn't do anything, and I had units that would normally deal with them...
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The problem only exists in two-cliff level transitions to the normal ground level or the pit. It does not appear on transitions from the 1-level to the pit because the game uses an invisible plane to not go below the normal ground level. Transitions from 1-level to pit or ground level do not have a big gap, so this might be fine.
So, the problem is reduced to exactly one case. But I guess that case is not that uncommon.
Technically, the system is working fine (and most likely as intended), but the usability is not perfect due to these gaps and the addition of the Ravager with its small AoE requires players to be able to target these areas with a good precision.
Mapmakers could fix it via not using these 2-level cliff to normal/pit transitions. They could add 1-level cliffs behind it and make it unwalkable. Unfortunately, this hurts the aesthetics as Nony stated. Thus, only Blizzard can fix this in the engine. But how could this be done?
One potential solution would be that the mouse target point plane moves on a slope behind the cliff (instead of using the terrain height behind the cliff). That would replace the gap with a smoother transition.
But it might feel weird as it will offset the point (a unit would move to a point slightly higher than right now behind these cliffs). If that feels too weird, it could only be done for abilities and not usual right-clicks. That way, abilities could be still placed on every 2D position on the map without big gaps.
Alternatively, everyone needs to learn to move/rotate the camera, but that is a truly boring solution. =/
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