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On May 02 2015 00:19 Barrin wrote:According to http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Spells there are 24 spells in BW. According to http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Spells there are 34 spells in SC2. Protoss has 3 more, Zerg has 4 more, and Terran has 3 more in SC2 than in BW. And the SC2 page hasn't been updated with any of the Oracle's 3 spells, Medivac's Afterburners, Swarm Hosts' Spawn Locusts, or Viper's Consume. Furthermore, new LotV unit spells/abilities are not counted: Immortal's new activated shield, Reaper's new grenade, Tempest's new damage over time, Carrier's new interceptor release, Battlecruiser's new warp jump, Ravager's corrosive bile, Cyclone's target lock, Adept's shadow, and Disruptor's explosion. So we're at 24 spells/abilities in BW to SC2's 49. SC2 about has twice as many spells/abilities as BW.To be fair, BW Recall ~= SC2 RecallBW Psionic Storm ~= SC2 Psionic StormBW Hallucinate ~= SC2 HallucinateBW Yamato ~= SC2 YamatoBW Cloak ~= SC2 CloakBW EMP ~= SC2 EMPCorsair's Disruption Web ~= Viper's Blinding CloudDark Archon's Feedback ~= High Templar's FeedbackDefiler's Plague & Queen's Ensare ~= Infestor's Fungal Growth & Mothership's Time WarpDefiler's Consume ~= Viper's ConsumeQueen's Parasite ~= Oracle's RevelationDark Archon's Mind Control ~= Infestor's Neural ParasiteMedic Heal ~= Medivac's Heal(~= means "about equal") And sure SC2 has a lot more spells, but are there any SC2 spells not bolded above as strong as BW's Stasis Field, Maelstrom, Dark Swarm, Spawn Broodling, Lockdown, Defensive Matrix, or Irradiate? Some data for you.
On the other hand, SC2 seems to have less upgrades than Brood War. I checked for zerg and in LotV they preemptively removed the lurker upgrade, the swarm host lost its upgrade and one of the hydralisk upgrades is merged. They also removed tunneling claws. Honestly, if Blizzard cared they would remove the infestor upgrades as well since they're pointless. What remains are speed upgrades for the hydralisk, roach, zergling, baneling and overlord and some unused other ones left over from Brood War. I guess when gameplay is so fast all you have time for are speed upgrades.
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On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On May 02 2015 01:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement. Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes. The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?) Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted. Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually? Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games? And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
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On May 02 2015 01:41 Ingvar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement. Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes. The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?) Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted. Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually? Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games? And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy. There is no "strategy" in MOBA.
Of course there is...
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On May 02 2015 01:41 Ingvar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement. Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes. The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?) Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted. Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually? Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games? And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy. There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs.
Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition.
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Back to the original topic though, this sounds pretty epic. I remember early WoL. It was like the Wild West. Such fun memories. So many good Marauder memes.
Got beta yesterday, so today I will be on and I will MOST DEFINITLY try this 
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On May 02 2015 01:47 Barrin wrote:
Actually, that new viper ability is kinda like Irradiate. Irradiate is better though.
Yes, it's a revamped Irradiate. And unsurprisingly, it doesn't work at all in the SC2 temporal environment. Just like with the old Fungal, the effort/effect ratio is off. Players found about Marines vs Banelings splitting thanks to a happy accident, so now the developers are abusing the gold vein but it's already exhausted. Betting on nerfs/redesign/complaints as soon as Vipers become a staple.
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The grenade animation looks soooo silly. It just feels out of place and unrealistic. The idea is OK, but I really think they have to work on the animation.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On May 02 2015 01:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 01:41 Ingvar wrote:On May 02 2015 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement. Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes. The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?) Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted. Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually? Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games? And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy. There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs. Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition.
I have idea what I'm talking about - I play DotA. The only real strategy in MOBA is hero selection - you have full access to all options and multitude of combinations. After that you're limited to your spells, viable items, capabilities of your draft and so on - you need to make tactical decisions, but not strategical. That's why what is called a "pocket strategy" is actually a pocket draft - your game plan is predefined after hero picks and what matters is execution. But hero picks are not the game - rather pre-game - hence "no strategy".
Back to the topic - no amount of spells added will make SC2 a MOBA as long as full amount of options is available to you - and adding spell to the unit who was notorious for being useless after the first couple of minutes is actually making game more strategical.
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On May 02 2015 01:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 01:47 Barrin wrote:
Actually, that new viper ability is kinda like Irradiate. Irradiate is better though. Yes, it's a revamped Irradiate. And unsurprisingly, it doesn't work at all in the SC2 temporal environment. Just like with the old Fungal, the effort/effect ratio is off. Players found about Marines vs Banelings splitting thanks to a happy accident, so now the developers are abusing the gold vein but it's already exhausted. Betting on nerfs/redesign/complaints as soon as Vipers become a staple.
Especially since it's basically just "seeker missile but with a DoT".
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On May 02 2015 01:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement. Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes. The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?) Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted. Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually? Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games? And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
I bet most people who meet you in real life hate you.
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On May 02 2015 02:43 TronJovolta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement. Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes. The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?) Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted. Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually? Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games? And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy. I bet most people who meet you in real life hate you.
HAHAHAHAHA
His manner of speech gets really annoying sometimes, but he makes good points.
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Quick, change that post TronJovolta before the mods find it and "user was warned for this post"
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On May 02 2015 02:46 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Quick, change that post TronJovolta before the mods find it and "user was warned for this post"
It's too late now man, he's been quoted already.
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On May 02 2015 02:18 Ingvar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 01:49 DinoMight wrote:On May 02 2015 01:41 Ingvar wrote:On May 02 2015 01:31 TheDwf wrote:On May 02 2015 00:40 TronJovolta wrote:On May 01 2015 13:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA. And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there. DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit. It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement. Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes. The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?) Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted. Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually? Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games? And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy. There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs. Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition. I have idea what I'm talking about - I play DotA. The only real strategy in MOBA is hero selection - you have full access to all options and multitude of combinations. After that you're limited to your spells, viable items, capabilities of your draft and so on - you need to make tactical decisions, but not strategical. That's why what is called a "pocket strategy" is actually a pocket draft - your game plan is predefined after hero picks and what matters is execution. But hero picks are not the game - rather pre-game - hence "no strategy". Back to the topic - no amount of spells added will make SC2 a MOBA as long as full amount of options is available to you - and adding spell to the unit who was notorious for being useless after the first couple of minutes is actually making game more strategical.
I think you're bad at DotA. Also I don't think you know what tactics are.
Tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end
So yea, if there are tactical decisions, there is strategy. MOBAs have strategy.
I really wish blizzard would let us have more control of units (damage point), slow down the battles (maybe make normal the standard?), make the economy better (I'm not a fan of the 100/60 HotS method) and remove most of the cooldown abilities.
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Honestly, I think if they just kept the economy the same, MAYBE 8 workers starting and removed 1 patch to make it 7 at each base that would go a long way. It would slow the game down a bit overall but speed up the early game and reward 4th bases more than hotS by a good margin.
Right now you basically can't have any early game units with a good ability because its SO easy to just mass them really fast. As Iaguz has aptly illustrated.
So basically anything that is a good "harass" unit becomes an early game "spam" unit instead because of the economy.
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ok I met this build today, scouted, got spines, flooded speedlings, caught and killed his initial reapers, still lost
fun times of 2010
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On May 02 2015 03:20 Ej_ wrote:
ok I met this build today, scouted, got spines, flooded speedlings, caught and killed his initial reapers, still lost
fun times of 2010
Did building the spines/flooding speedlings cut too much into other aspects of your game?
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I saw the thread title and thought I had travelled back in time to 2010 lol
the more things change the more they stay the same
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EPT
