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TLADT24920 Posts
On April 03 2015 03:11 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: The way psychology, including examinations, work is that there needs to be total honesty from a patient. A depressed patient can lie himself through a cursury examination easily. And he probably will if his job depended on it. Psych evaluations against peoples wills (criminal cases) takes weeks or even months in a closed and monitored enviorment.
And if you force doctors to report their patients you will kill more pilots by far than you will save passengers becuase suacidal pilots wont get the help they need. Actually its more likely this will happen because they cant go on sick leave so they will keep flying instead. First part of this paragraph hits the nail in its head. Trust is really important in the medical field. If a patient doesn't yet their healthcare provider, then they'll hide important information which won't really help the issue.
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On April 02 2015 17:59 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 13:43 Caihead wrote: Do you realize how many companies would abuse that to fire or deny advances to employees they deem unfit? Pregnant women, chronic issues (be they mental or physical), disabilities, past medical histories (drug use, addiction, accidents), etc. This is one thing that really stands out in your post. Why do you call it "abuse"? Why I as an employer should not be able to pick employees that I "deem fit"? In Europe, there is already a mountain of regulations severely limiting my ability to hire and fire people according to my needs and restricting me in what I do with my own money when it comes to paying for other people's work. In your expression of fear of oppression of employees, you are blatantly ignoring the fact that the employee-employer relations are already greatly skewed in favor of the employee.
Regardless of how hard you skew a employer-employee relationship, a corporation is still a tyrannical structure where power innately reside with the employer. Those mountains of regulations exist to offset a fundamental inequality. I'm just speaking of potential for abuse. And unless you can establish a system where employees can be honest to their medical examiners with out fear of reprisal from the workplace or the government the whole psychiatric system breaks down.
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On April 03 2015 03:43 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 03:11 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: The way psychology, including examinations, work is that there needs to be total honesty from a patient. A depressed patient can lie himself through a cursury examination easily. And he probably will if his job depended on it. Psych evaluations against peoples wills (criminal cases) takes weeks or even months in a closed and monitored enviorment.
And if you force doctors to report their patients you will kill more pilots by far than you will save passengers becuase suacidal pilots wont get the help they need. Actually its more likely this will happen because they cant go on sick leave so they will keep flying instead. First part of this paragraph hits the nail in its head. Trust is really important in the medical field. If a patient doesn't yet their healthcare provider, then they'll hide important information which won't really help the issue.
Exactly. Many people proposing rules just fail to take into account how people will adjust to those new rules. That's why many regulations fail to do anything or just make the problem worse.
I think that airlines will end up having to provide an alternative career path to pilots who can't hack it anymore. The only way you can really prevent this is if pilots like Lubbitz voluntarily give up their license because they know they have a backup plan in place.
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So they say it may have been murder in the first degree since he did research on cockpit doors and suicide on his laptop beforehand. Also second black box found and Air France announced 2 people will always be in the cockpit. Source: Today french news FR2.
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If the guys own doctor wouldn't have gotten on a plane with him flying it people/he shouldn't have been let onto said plane. The reason he was, is because he had control over reporting is ineligibility. Trust and all that has nothing to do with what didn't happen.
You guys all feel the same way about drug use right? That we should decriminalize it so people don't have to fear getting help? They should be provided alternative job opportunities if they piss dirty? We wouldn't want them to hide their addiction because it would cost them their career right?
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On April 03 2015 06:09 GreenHorizons wrote: If the guys own doctor wouldn't have gotten on a plane with him flying it people/he shouldn't have been let onto said plane. The reason he was, is because he had control over reporting is ineligibility. Trust and all that has nothing to do with what didn't happen.
You guys all feel the same way about drug use right? That we should decriminalize it so people don't have to fear getting help? They should be provided alternative job opportunities if they piss dirty? We wouldn't want them to hide their addiction because it would cost them their career right?
Honestly it really doesn't make a lot of sense to discuss this further with you. It's a fact that we rarely ever see people harmed by other because of suicide. Just think of how many planes take off and land safely without any problem. You will create so many more problems by institutionalizing mental checkups than solving any. The majority of pilots isn't suicidal and the majority of suicidal pilots will not commit suicide by crashing an airplane. And even if a pilot is willing to do so he still has to get the chance.
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On April 03 2015 06:40 lohdon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 06:09 GreenHorizons wrote: If the guys own doctor wouldn't have gotten on a plane with him flying it people/he shouldn't have been let onto said plane. The reason he was, is because he had control over reporting is ineligibility. Trust and all that has nothing to do with what didn't happen.
You guys all feel the same way about drug use right? That we should decriminalize it so people don't have to fear getting help? They should be provided alternative job opportunities if they piss dirty? We wouldn't want them to hide their addiction because it would cost them their career right?
Honestly it really doesn't make a lot of sense to discuss this further with you. It's a fact that we rarely ever see people harmed by other because of suicide. Just think of how many planes take off and land safely without any problem. You will create so many more problems by institutionalizing mental checkups than solving any. The majority of pilots isn't suicidal and the majority of suicidal pilots will not commit suicide by crashing an airplane. And even if a pilot is willing to do so he still has to get the chance.
Ok... I can agree on not discussing it with you further... They already have the check-ups... It wouldn't be instituting them. It would just mean instead of him ripping up the note that said he couldn't fly and getting on the plane there would be something to prevent that.
Like I said several times, I think people should be regularly taking care of their mental health anyway, so all the trust, stigma, and institutions of mandatory... non-sense comes out of ignoring that part of my point. Before being a pilot one should have a regular mental healthcare provider by choice, but it's not absurd to require people that want these types of jobs to have ongoing mental health care. It's not about forcing them to divulge information, it's about helping people stay healthy and safe. The idea is to prevent things from escalating to the point where they want to kill themselves or others. Finally reporting things that are dangerous is only supposed to be a last resort. As in the problems are being addressed, but it is imperative that they not engage in activity (like piloting a plane alone) until they are.
As much as people want me to be some depression boogie man type, I'm not. The idea of screening the mental health of pilots was not mine and was implemented long before I suggested it. The tweaks I was suggesting were to consider someones profession when making a 'duty to report' assessment, and to encourage more comprehensive mental healthcare inside and outside of industries like commercial airlines.
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On April 03 2015 05:17 rezoacken wrote: So they say it may have been murder in the first degree since he did research on cockpit doors and suicide on his laptop beforehand. Also second black box found and Air France announced 2 people will always be in the cockpit. Source: Today french news FR2. I think the bigger take-away from this isn't that its murder because he researched cockpit security, its that he had to research cockpit security to begin with.
Shouldn't a co-pilot know that kind of thing inside and out, to the point that he wouldn't need to research it? Isn't it more worrisome that he felt he wasn't knowledgeable on the issue?
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Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues.
Divide et impera.
+ Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html
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On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German?
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On April 03 2015 08:23 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German?
flying within europe will require a passport again because politicians are stupid as fuck.
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On April 03 2015 13:13 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 08:23 Millitron wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German? flying within europe will require a passport again because politicians are stupid as fuck.
Sounds like some political bull shit.
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On April 03 2015 07:16 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 05:17 rezoacken wrote: So they say it may have been murder in the first degree since he did research on cockpit doors and suicide on his laptop beforehand. Also second black box found and Air France announced 2 people will always be in the cockpit. Source: Today french news FR2. I think the bigger take-away from this isn't that its murder because he researched cockpit security, its that he had to research cockpit security to begin with. Shouldn't a co-pilot know that kind of thing inside and out, to the point that he wouldn't need to research it? Isn't it more worrisome that he felt he wasn't knowledgeable on the issue?
I don't think you can conclude that the co-pilot didn't know about the door. He may have been told its impenetrable, and considering how important this fact was to his plans he wanted to research it to make sure. He wouldn't have wanted the pilot to have some secret entrance that co-pilots aren't told about and then spend his life in prison.
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On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html
On April 03 2015 13:13 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 08:23 Millitron wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German? flying within europe will require a passport again because politicians are stupid as fuck.
Schengen was stupid in the first place. You have to carry a personal id card or a passport with yourself ANYHOW if you travel outside your home country so why the heck should flying not require a passport anyway?
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On April 03 2015 16:57 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 13:13 hfglgg wrote:On April 03 2015 08:23 Millitron wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German? flying within europe will require a passport again because politicians are stupid as fuck. Schengen was stupid in the first place. You have to carry a personal id card or a passport with yourself ANYHOW if you travel outside your home country so why the heck should flying not require a passport anyway?
I fly a lot in Schengen, most times do not use/show my passport/ID card (if i check-in online).
anyway, what is the connection between this catastrophe and passengers having passports with them?
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On April 03 2015 17:03 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 16:57 sharkie wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html On April 03 2015 13:13 hfglgg wrote:On April 03 2015 08:23 Millitron wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German? flying within europe will require a passport again because politicians are stupid as fuck. Schengen was stupid in the first place. You have to carry a personal id card or a passport with yourself ANYHOW if you travel outside your home country so why the heck should flying not require a passport anyway? I fly a lot in Schengen, most times do not use/show my passport/ID card (if i check-in online). anyway, what is the connection between this catastrophe and passengers having passports with them?
You need to carry a passport/ID card with you at all times. It's European law.
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On April 03 2015 17:05 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 17:03 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On April 03 2015 16:57 sharkie wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html On April 03 2015 13:13 hfglgg wrote:On April 03 2015 08:23 Millitron wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German? flying within europe will require a passport again because politicians are stupid as fuck. Schengen was stupid in the first place. You have to carry a personal id card or a passport with yourself ANYHOW if you travel outside your home country so why the heck should flying not require a passport anyway? I fly a lot in Schengen, most times do not use/show my passport/ID card (if i check-in online). anyway, what is the connection between this catastrophe and passengers having passports with them? You need to carry a passport/ID card with you at all times. It's European law.
That's not what i said, isn't it? Since i cant read german, does the article say I have to carry passport or any identity card? these are different as you know. If its any form of identitification document - then this article has 0 sense. if your PASSPORT is now required, then its a change and a fucking stupid one.
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From the article (summary): The problem they want to tackle is when a person sells his ticket to someone else. So there should be security checks before boarding to ensure the person boarding the plane is the one for whom the ticket was issued. The identity card would be enough but some German airlines like Lufthansa fail to check the identity card on flights inside the Schengen area at boarding.
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On April 03 2015 17:10 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 17:05 sharkie wrote:On April 03 2015 17:03 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On April 03 2015 16:57 sharkie wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html On April 03 2015 13:13 hfglgg wrote:On April 03 2015 08:23 Millitron wrote:On April 03 2015 08:17 Dagobert wrote:Aaaand we finally have a pretext to abolish the Schengen treaty,... and so it continues. Divide et impera. + Show Spoiler [Source [GER] +]http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausweispflicht-schengen-fluege-101.html Summery please for those of us who don't speak German? flying within europe will require a passport again because politicians are stupid as fuck. Schengen was stupid in the first place. You have to carry a personal id card or a passport with yourself ANYHOW if you travel outside your home country so why the heck should flying not require a passport anyway? I fly a lot in Schengen, most times do not use/show my passport/ID card (if i check-in online). anyway, what is the connection between this catastrophe and passengers having passports with them? You need to carry a passport/ID card with you at all times. It's European law. That's not what i said, isn't it? Since i cant read german, does the article say I have to carry passport or any identity card? these are different as you know. If its any form of identitification document - then this article has 0 sense. if your PASSPORT is now required, then its a change and a fucking stupid one.
Why is it stupid if YOU HAVE TO carry one with you anyway? Has humanity become seriously so lazy that they can't even take out a passport from their luggage nowdays? It's too much work or what?
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I had worked at embarks, checking in and embarking passengers to airplanes. You had to show your ID two times, first when you check in (you can bypass this online) and the second time when you embark the plane. If somehow you are allowed to pass through withouth showing your ID, it's due to lazy companies, because as far i know it's standarized, but i do not know if companies are forced by the goverment to check them or if it depends on the country, since my experience has been only on Spain.
You just happen to not need to show your ID at the border controls, like for example, i had to when i went to England, but if the company does its work, you still need the ID (and really, you always need an ID document, so "having to carry it" is a moot point).
The reason the change is unneeded is because if you forced the companies to do the ID checks, you can still bypass the border control which speed up the passengers transit, which is why the Schengen exists.
Edit - Wrong, it's three times, i forgot the step in the middle
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