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What's with the showerophobia? If every gay or bi would corner straight men with a pulsing hard-on, or want to soap someone down for half an hour after every training... there might be a point. Point is, as long as people keep up the facade of being 100% straight and you haven't ever been bothered with that, thát might be the problem. This guy has been showering for all of his life with men who might very well be gay as well, but no-one ever bothered, isn't that a sign that being gay is all in the homophobe's head?
Have you ever showered with people you knew were gay/bi, or people you weren't fully familiar with in the sexual orientation department? Have you caught the plague yet? I haven't. And I've been showering with people I know to be gay, bi and heterosexual for years, and I'm sure quite many whom I don't. It doesn't mean we're tossing bars of soap at each others' feet, or dance the YMCA naked, it's just a reality of the country I'm living in, the sport I'm playing. I'm sure heterosexuals showering mixedly wouldn't lead to orgies or mass embarassment, despite what beavis and butthead cs would make you believe. It might even be a good thing to help people get over themselves. Sure, different countries and social groups have different showering habits, but not wanting to shower with gay people is rather embarassing. In my opinion at least.
So if you're against don't-ask-don't-tell, the logical consequence would be that you accept people with a different sexual orientation in every way you would accept people with different skin colour or BMI or WHATEVER.
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I don't see how this is news-worthy(note I see how this is news-worthy but I should rather say, I don't understand why this is news-worthy. Hmmm ... or rather, this should not be news-worthy?)
Anyway good for him. If he was a girl no one would care.
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On May 01 2013 00:29 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 23:51 KwarK wrote: I'm straight and I still feel uncomfortable showering with other people I'm not in a sexual relationship with because I'm getting my junk out in front of random people. Ultimately it comes down to either demanding your own private shower to feel better or dealing with it, gay or straight doesn't make any difference to me in that regard. touché basically intimacy comes down to "feeling" looked at, which is the main reason why girl changing up might ask you to turn around. because you're both conscious of the possible attraction of either one of you. this is what might make people feel unconfortable. I don't think this form of discomfort is related to homophobia but simply to this principle of proximity. I could care less being naked in front of people I'm familiar with, friends,gf, relatives. "but he was familiar in the past, he used to shower with them" that's totally true, but his coming out put a difference in the relation between him and his teamates, just like after being away from your parent's house for a couples years can bring discomfort if they see you or you see them naked. Show nested quote +About the locker rooms. I think it's fair for straight men to not want gay men in the same showers just like women wouldn't want men in their showers. However, finding a solution is difficult and I guess people should just try to not give a fuck unless a gay guy is acting inappropriately. No, its not right for straight men to not want him in the locker room, but it would be right to be unconfortable (like i explained), it's something they must face. you can't just segregate things/people that make you feel uncomfortable, because that would be based on the prejudice that he would act inappropriately cause hes gay. Him being gay won't make him act inappropriately, he's still subject to "rules", "norms" and "morality", like most men in a girl's room would respect women intimacy.
To play the devils advocate a bit, I dont see how one can then justify gender-segregated showers either (or toilets, but that's another can of worms entirely)
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United States22883 Posts
On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not?
That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish.
The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson.
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On May 01 2013 00:32 Shikyo wrote: I don't see how this is news-worthy(note I see how this is news-worthy but I should rather say, I don't understand why this is news-worthy. Hmmm ... or rather, this should not be news-worthy?)
Anyway good for him. If he was a girl no one would care.
I agree with this sentiment: Why is this news? Let's look at it logically. A professional athlete is announcing he is gay. That's it. President Obama just said in his interview a few minutes ago that a man should be judged on his character and not his sexual preference. And yet, the media is doing the opposite. We are calling this guy a "hero" based on his sexual preference and not his character. Only after he said he was gay did anyone look into his character.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 01 2013 00:38 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:32 Shikyo wrote: I don't see how this is news-worthy(note I see how this is news-worthy but I should rather say, I don't understand why this is news-worthy. Hmmm ... or rather, this should not be news-worthy?)
Anyway good for him. If he was a girl no one would care. I agree with this sentiment: Why is this news? Let's look at it logically. A professional athlete is announcing he is gay. That's it. President Obama just said in his interview a few minutes ago that a man should be judged on his character and not his sexual preference. And yet, the media is doing the opposite. We are calling this guy a "hero" based on his sexual preference and not his character. Only after he said he was gay did anyone look into his character. He's not a hero, but he's making a step that'll make it easier for other gay athletes, if they want to. It's important because sports are embedded with such a macho culture, that many never thought it would happen (and some idiots still think it's impossible for athletes to be gay.)
What he did was not noteworthy in itself, but it's a reflection of society. To me, the proper response should be "I wish we lived in a society where this wasn't shocking or inappropriate to anyone."
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On April 30 2013 23:31 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 23:08 marvellosity wrote:On April 30 2013 22:56 Klondikebar wrote:On April 30 2013 22:37 Shiragaku wrote:On April 30 2013 22:20 Yuljan wrote: Honestly I dont know why any heterosexual guy would insult gay guys. They are fucking great. Every gay guy means more girls left for the rest of us. If you ever need a good wingman, give me a call. On April 30 2013 22:32 Klondikebar wrote:On April 30 2013 22:22 SwedishHero wrote: I wonder in which lockerroom he will change and which showerroom he will shower in. And this is not a joke. Its not like Iam allowed to shower with girls. And I wouldnt want gay men to shower in the same showerroom as me. And I have absolutely nothing against gay men/women. Well given that he's always used his team's locker room, he's going to keep using it. Several players have already said that being paranoid about changing around a gay dude is stupid. Being attracted to men myself, I learned very easily how to learn how to deal with situations such as this. In a locker room, there is nothing that is meant to be sexual, yes there are other naked guys but you do not feel arousal because the purpose is to change, not to relieve sexual tension. When you are naked with another guy in bed or looking at porn, you feel arousal because that is exactly what you are suppose to do in such a situation. Also, please treat us as men, not as women. Also gaydar is more effective than people think. It's rare for me to be attracted to a straight guy without a lot of alcohol or unless they're intentionally leading me on. I could change in a locker room full of straight guys without batting an eye. Rare for you, not necessarily rare for plenty of other gay guys though. Not a single one of my gay friends has ever hit on a straight dude unless the guy was deliberately trying to appear gay or in a gay bar. Oh marv, contrarian as always.
I found this post amusing and then I decided to read the rest of the chain. I'm glad your friends would never hit on another guy unless they knew they were gay beforehand; but, that certainly isn't true for everyone. Back when I was in University I got hit on several times by men. One time, some guy just gave me his card right outside the uni gym. Which was kind of creepy because I just worked out and got changed. I never seen the guy in my entire life either. Gay guys are certainly more forward over the last decade. In either case, I really don't care about changing in the same room as them.
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On May 01 2013 00:36 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not? That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish. The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson. it's not sexual because you chose not to make it sexual, not because it isn't sexual in itself.
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On May 01 2013 00:31 nepeta wrote: What's with the showerophobia? If every gay or bi would corner straight men with a pulsing hard-on, or want to soap someone down for half an hour after every training... there might be a point. Point is, as long as people keep up the facade of being 100% straight and you haven't ever been bothered with that, thát might be the problem. This guy has been showering for all of his life with men who might very well be gay as well, but no-one ever bothered, isn't that a sign that being gay is all in the homophobe's head?
Have you ever showered with people you knew were gay/bi, or people you weren't fully familiar with in the sexual orientation department? Have you caught the plague yet? I haven't. And I've been showering with people I know to be gay, bi and heterosexual for years, and I'm sure quite many whom I don't. It doesn't mean we're tossing bars of soap at each others' feet, or dance the YMCA naked, it's just a reality of the country I'm living in, the sport I'm playing. I'm sure heterosexuals showering mixedly wouldn't lead to orgies or mass embarassment, despite what beavis and butthead cs would make you believe. It might even be a good thing to help people get over themselves. Sure, different countries and social groups have different showering habits, but not wanting to shower with gay people is rather embarassing. In my opinion at least.
So if you're against don't-ask-don't-tell, the logical consequence would be that you accept people with a different sexual orientation in every way you would accept people with different skin colour or BMI or WHATEVER. Normative American society is too victorian to even understand what you just said, sorry.
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On May 01 2013 00:38 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:32 Shikyo wrote: I don't see how this is news-worthy(note I see how this is news-worthy but I should rather say, I don't understand why this is news-worthy. Hmmm ... or rather, this should not be news-worthy?)
Anyway good for him. If he was a girl no one would care. I agree with this sentiment: Why is this news? Let's look at it logically. A professional athlete is announcing he is gay. That's it. President Obama just said in his interview a few minutes ago that a man should be judged on his character and not his sexual preference. And yet, the media is doing the opposite. We are calling this guy a "hero" based on his sexual preference and not his character. Only after he said he was gay did anyone look into his character.
Unless you've been living under a rock, you should know that gay people still get discriminated against. It takes a certain amount of courage to invite the insults and the taunting and the spotlight that comes from coming out of the closet. He's the first active athlete in the US with the courage to do so. Logically, firsts are very newsworthy. You are discussing it, right?
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United States22883 Posts
On May 01 2013 00:45 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:36 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not? That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish. The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson. it's not sexual because you chose not to make it sexual, not because it isn't sexual in itself. I think you have it backwards.
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On May 01 2013 00:48 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:45 xM(Z wrote:On May 01 2013 00:36 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not? That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish. The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson. it's not sexual because you chose not to make it sexual, not because it isn't sexual in itself. I think you have it backwards. how are naked bodies not sexual?
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The only reason naked bodies are sexual is because you are usually only naked when having sex, which has effects on society. Aren't there tribes in hotter regions who are basically always naked, and thus don't see it as sexual?
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United States22883 Posts
On May 01 2013 00:52 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:48 Jibba wrote:On May 01 2013 00:45 xM(Z wrote:On May 01 2013 00:36 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not? That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish. The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson. it's not sexual because you chose not to make it sexual, not because it isn't sexual in itself. I think you have it backwards. how are naked bodies not sexual? Because they're not? Because being naked is the natural state of human beings? There is no inherent sexual-ness to people being naked. People being naked, wanting to have sex, is sexual.
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On May 01 2013 00:52 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:48 Jibba wrote:On May 01 2013 00:45 xM(Z wrote:On May 01 2013 00:36 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not? That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish. The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson. it's not sexual because you chose not to make it sexual, not because it isn't sexual in itself. I think you have it backwards. how are naked bodies not sexual?
You are implying that women reporters and assistants get naked in the locker room. It is a quite different situation if both are naked.
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Wait, there are women reporters and assistants in professional sports locker rooms? In that case the whole problem really should not be a problem at all. I have no experience with professional sports, i think everyone basically just pictures his locker room from school and assumes it is a similar situation for professional athletes. If you are comfortable being naked around random women then you shouldn't care about random gay people either.
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On May 01 2013 00:54 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:52 xM(Z wrote:On May 01 2013 00:48 Jibba wrote:On May 01 2013 00:45 xM(Z wrote:On May 01 2013 00:36 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not? That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish. The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson. it's not sexual because you chose not to make it sexual, not because it isn't sexual in itself. I think you have it backwards. how are naked bodies not sexual? Because they're not? Because being naked is the natural state of human beings? There is no inherent sexual-ness to people being naked. People being naked, wanting to have sex, is sexual.
Well, I for one see your point, but at the same time I would argue that whether or not a naked body in and of itself is sexual is something that people will tend to see differently because of differences in culture, upbringing, potential stigma and other factors of the social nature.
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there is nothing 'natural' about being naked. i did not grew up naked, i do not not find it natural. what is natural for others it's not natural for me. involution is not natural. if you want to go with the 'natural way', you should also respect the mating cycle, not fuck whenever you feel like it.
@Catch]22 - people were talking about showerophobia ( ) , i did not differentiate between naked males/females because it's irrelevant to my point.
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United States41341 Posts
On May 01 2013 00:52 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:48 Jibba wrote:On May 01 2013 00:45 xM(Z wrote:On May 01 2013 00:36 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 23:21 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm happy for him now he can be himself and that he doesn't have to hide anything. Still, I wonder why homosexuality amongst male athletes seems to be lower than the general population? The media would like us to be believe athletes as a subset of the general population are no different and that there are hundreds or thousands of male athletes scared to come out but this doesn't pass the whiff test.
Why not? That's exactly why this is a story, he's no longer keeping it hidden. If most gay athletes felt comfortable doing that, this wouldn't be a story. Tying it in to hormones is just foolish. The other stupid part about the locker room discussion is that every professional sports locker room is filled with men and women (reporters, trainers, assistants, etc.) after games. It's not sexual at all. EDIT: Unless you're Magic Johnson. it's not sexual because you chose not to make it sexual, not because it isn't sexual in itself. I think you have it backwards. how are naked bodies not sexual? Most people realise fairly early on that everyone is naked under their clothes. The conceptual awareness that other people have genitals ceases to be erotic after the first few wanks. It's the same principle.
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On May 01 2013 00:09 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:33 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 11:56 Sermokala wrote: I was quite disipointed by this. Jackie Robinson (first black athlete in US sports with white people) was a superstar in the prime of his career when he strove forward race relations in this nation. He was spat on and insulted by every other team and the fans across the nation.
This guy is going to cash in greatly, never have to play another game again in his life, received a phone call from the president, and will be able to push out of the business anyone who says an odd word to him now, all from day 1 of coming out at the end of anything public that he had to do in his life.
But of course they're the same thing for civil rights in america.
Edit: I'm not trying to take anything away from the guy, he obviously made the best decision he could ever have made. Being in the NBA for that long takes a ton of talent, work ethic, and skill. I just don't see the real difference between him and the other retired openly gay professional athletes that have come out over the years when their career was over. The guy simply isn't an active Athlete in a major american sport. First, this is like saying you're disappointed because "Rosa Parks was just a nobody. Who cares how she was treated on a bus?" I think it's actually more critical that Collins is a non-superstar athlete because it'll show more about people's character in how they treat him. If he were a superstar, people acquiesce to him no matter what, even hiding their homophobia. Because he's not a great player nor is he essential, people's true feelings are more likely to be revealed. I've heard people talk about him "cashing in" on a book deal or something. He's made $30+ million playing basketball and he'll make 1.35m if he gets another year. He may be doing it for publicity, but I don't think money is his motivation. The difference is that he's not retired. His career might be dwindling, but he has the chance to play for another year or two and make millions more dollars. It's less of a risk than someone in their prime coming out, but that's exactly why they don't. To date, I think this is the biggest risk a gay athlete has ever taken in coming out publicly. It might not be big enough for your liking, but your liking kind of sucks. Are you high? "peoples true feelings might be revealed"? Anyone that talks anything bad about this guy is going to be instantly hounded by everyone. This isn't some rosa parks "gee I might die from sitting in the front of the bus" this is some guy whos at the end of his career coming out because hes got nothing to lose and a ton to gain from it. Nike has said they have a large deal waiting for the first guy coming out and his net worth just exploded if he can brand him self as the "first openly gay active athlete in US major mens sports history. Even if he isn't that thing hes still going to be wildly celebrated for some reason. There is literally no risk to this guy coming out and you are completely mad if you think there is. No reason to insult me because I'm not on the same bandwagon of hope you do.
You sound like some sheltered, rich, white guy that doesn't understand how the real world works. Do you also think that racism doesn't exist anymore? That women are actually treated equal to men in most aspects of society? That minority children don't suffer disproportionately from poverty?
No risk for a public figure coming out as openly homosexual? You need to get out more.
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