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On March 03 2012 10:27 soujiro_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 08:56 Waxangel wrote:On February 23 2012 19:15 Pholon wrote: If I know there's a stream I can calender it with savior playing? you're lucky this thread exists. You should contact twitchtv and inform them that there are people using their service to broadcast games from such a vile person, they are hurting ESPORTS!
Esports huh ? Is that even a legitimate term recognize by casual ?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
zealot archon sair reaver is deadly as hell
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
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Tune in NOW, tied 2-2, set 5 just started.
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Anytime must win so will have a PvZ finals!!! And highly possible rematch!
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Australia1064 Posts
On March 01 2012 19:27 ImbaTosS wrote: When will VODs be up? I would like to offer to re-cast in English, seeing the incredible quality of this event. Otherwise only really the hardcore are going to watch it, and that's a shame.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AfreecaBW/videos?view=pl
These are all the VODs posted so far by Hodduk on Afreeca, only groups C-G of the Ro32 are available at the moment and there are a couple of matches missing but there's no buffering. If he posts any more VODs of the other Ro32 groups or the later stages of the tournament I'll reupload them to YT and put them on the LP page.
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People who cheer for Savior has to no right to complain about lack of OSL. I won't watch this tournament but I hope he loses.
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On March 04 2012 08:43 Hesmyrr wrote: People who cheer for Savior has to no right to complain about lack of OSL. I won't watch this tournament but I hope he loses.
don't be so mad xd
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It's ok savior I'll always be ur fan
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United States9655 Posts
On March 04 2012 08:43 Hesmyrr wrote: People who cheer for Savior has to no right to complain about lack of OSL. I won't watch this tournament but I hope he loses. I dont see the comparison...
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LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though.
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Sorry if I offended anyone. Please don't take my words personal whenever I discuss any of these subject matters:
I have unhealthy tendency of going rabid talking about them, though honestly I feel perfectly justified on criticizing the latter and those who understate his crimes.
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On March 04 2012 11:45 supernovamaniac wrote: LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though.
Huh? Savior is on the MBC directors board? News to me. This shit gets blown way out of proportion. He is just an amateur now playing in an amateur league, get over it.
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On March 05 2012 00:27 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 11:45 supernovamaniac wrote: LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though. Huh? Savior is on the MBC directors board? News to me. This shit gets blown way out of proportion. He is just an amateur now playing in an amateur league, get over it. Get over it while people are still endorsing someone who brought down MSL, MBCGame, and almost proleague?
I'm sorry. I might as well get over it if people who still support that person just completely stopped following pro-Korean BW scene and just kept it to Mafreeca. Then maybe I'll get over the fact that the person has contributed to shutting down MSL, MBCGame, and is still making money off from a game that he helped destroy not only to the fans, but also to the general public.
Oh and before you bullshit about "snm has no basis, jumping to conclusion too early"
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317103¤tpage=4#76
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On March 05 2012 00:27 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 11:45 supernovamaniac wrote: LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though. Huh? Savior is on the MBC directors board? News to me. This shit gets blown way out of proportion. He is just an amateur now playing in an amateur league, get over it. Since snm chose to respond I might as well. Don't know why you are blaming MBC directors board here when it is their job to maximize profit for their channel. I think of it as how Blizzard tried to get intellectual rights for the BW broadcast- terrible for the scene but justifiable enough for some people to actually defend them. It's like blaming the surgeon for amputating your leg instead of the random jerkass who decided to bury landmines on the promenade for lols.
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On March 05 2012 06:27 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 00:27 hellbound wrote:On March 04 2012 11:45 supernovamaniac wrote: LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though. Huh? Savior is on the MBC directors board? News to me. This shit gets blown way out of proportion. He is just an amateur now playing in an amateur league, get over it. Get over it while people are still endorsing someone who brought down MSL, MBCGame, and almost proleague? I'm sorry. I might as well get over it if people who still support that person just completely stopped following pro-Korean BW scene and just kept it to Mafreeca. Then maybe I'll get over the fact that the person has contributed to shutting down MSL, MBCGame, and is still making money off from a game that he helped destroy not only to the fans, but also to the general public. Oh and before you bullshit about "snm has no basis, jumping to conclusion too early" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317103¤tpage=4#76
The "blown out of proportion" part was meant to imply that I don't think the scandal, nevermind Voldemort himself, was as big as a factor in these events as you consider them to be. I disagree with this point. Also the MBC game people claiming that the channel and the league were still profitable during their last days is at odds to the fact that they were claiming that the franchise was losing money when Blizzard was up in arms about getting their cut. "Incidents" or no, it has been too long for that to be the only or a significant reason. The messages you posted were made when the decision to close was already made, I'll be a bit cynical about this, but here goes: if I decided to convert game into a music channel to make more money I'd announce that I did it because Savior hurt my pride in having an esports channel too. Not saying that that's how it is, but it's all a bit too convenient to be taken at face value. Kpop and MMOs are stronger than Voldemort's legacy.
The game is pretty much the same as it was whenever blizzard released the last real patch. And I doubt it can be "destroyed" per se. I think you meant to say "scene" and he got booted out of the scene that he hurt (not destroyed, because it's still with us). And while it's true that saying that the amateur streaming scene has nothing to do with the proscene is an oversimplification, saying that he is making money off the thing he damaged is also an oversimplification.
Attacking fans with rational arguments is moot, fandom is not an entirely rational process. Is forgiveness a bad thing anyway? I wanna go through a few thoughts now. Hodduk Starleague is a good thing. I like it, I like watching it, I'm glad it made manifest. The fact that savior participates definitely increases it's exposure, I'm sure lots of people tuned in just to see the fallen one play for love or hate. This is a classic case of "any publicity is good publicity". This success means that the likelihood of similar leagues in the future goes up. He is a positive factor here. The irony.
I guess I just don't have the highly moral outlook as per Korean standards, nor am fond of keeping grudges. What is done is done. The scene lives because there are still fans who still have pride in it. Quitting because some assholes did something not nice some time ago is such a weaksauce excuse. What, did MBC and potential OSL sponsors think that the BW scene was some sort of inhuman niche filled with hard working angels? No one is that naive, there are assholes everywhere. And milking that old scandal excuse is mostly bullshit. The way I saw the impact of the scandal was this: OGN made a huge deal (and a nasty marketing ploy) soon after it saying that the attendance and viewership of the immediate KAIR OSL finals would determine whether the scene is still viable. The day came and the hangar was full and there was spectacle and there was drama - there was starcraft and the people had spoken - they were still supporting BW and wanted it to live. And that should've been the end of it.
Edit:
On March 05 2012 09:52 Hesmyrr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 00:27 hellbound wrote:On March 04 2012 11:45 supernovamaniac wrote: LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though. Huh? Savior is on the MBC directors board? News to me. This shit gets blown way out of proportion. He is just an amateur now playing in an amateur league, get over it. Since snm chose to respond I might as well. Don't know why you are blaming MBC directors board here when it is their job to maximize profit for their channel. I think of it as how Blizzard tried to get intellectual rights for the BW broadcast- terrible for the scene but justifiable enough for some people to actually defend them. It's like blaming the surgeon for amputating your leg instead of the random jerkass who decided to throw acorns on the promenade for profit (crime for profit is better than one done for lols in my mind and it was for profit).
Changed your post to how I see it. Though my bigass rant mostly answers you, I can do it again too, ha. I don't really blame anyone. The people I am discussing here, including you are the ones blaming someone. True MBC made a corporate decision and no one can blame them for what they do with the things they own, like their TV channels. What I have a problem with is the thinking that they were forced into this decision by savior. There was something else behind that amputation besides the acorn stuck in my foot. A lucrative deal with an amputee kpop artist mayhap? Who knows, surgeons work in mysterious ways...
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On March 05 2012 09:55 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 06:27 supernovamaniac wrote:On March 05 2012 00:27 hellbound wrote:On March 04 2012 11:45 supernovamaniac wrote: LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though. Huh? Savior is on the MBC directors board? News to me. This shit gets blown way out of proportion. He is just an amateur now playing in an amateur league, get over it. Get over it while people are still endorsing someone who brought down MSL, MBCGame, and almost proleague? I'm sorry. I might as well get over it if people who still support that person just completely stopped following pro-Korean BW scene and just kept it to Mafreeca. Then maybe I'll get over the fact that the person has contributed to shutting down MSL, MBCGame, and is still making money off from a game that he helped destroy not only to the fans, but also to the general public. Oh and before you bullshit about "snm has no basis, jumping to conclusion too early" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317103¤tpage=4#76 The "blown out of proportion" part was meant to imply that I don't think the scandal, nevermind Voldemort himself, was as big as a factor in these events as you consider them to be. I disagree with this point. Also the MBC game people claiming that the channel and the league were still profitable during their last days is at odds to the fact that they were claiming that the franchise was losing money when Blizzard was up in arms about getting their cut. "Incidents" or no, it has been too long for that to be the only or a significant reason. The messages you posted were made when the decision to close was already made, I'll be a bit cynical about this, but here goes: if I decided to convert game into a music channel to make more money I'd announce that I did it because Savior hurt my pride in having an esports channel too. Not saying that that's how it is, but it's all a bit too convenient to be taken at face value. Kpop and MMOs are stronger than Voldemort's legacy. The game is pretty much the same as it was whenever blizzard released the last real patch. And I doubt it can be "destroyed" per se. I think you meant to say "scene" and he got booted out of the scene that he hurt (not destroyed, because it's still with us). And while it's true that saying that the amateur streaming scene has nothing to do with the proscene is an oversimplification, saying that he is making money off the thing he damaged is also an oversimplification. Attacking fans with rational arguments is moot, fandom is not an entirely rational process. Is forgiveness a bad thing anyway? I wanna go through a few thoughts now. Hodduk Starleague is a good thing. I like it, I like watching it, I'm glad it made manifest. The fact that savior participates definitely increases it's exposure, I'm sure lots of people tuned in just to see the fallen one play for love or hate. This is a classic case of "any publicity is good publicity". This success means that the likelihood of similar leagues in the future goes up. He is a positive factor here. The irony. I guess I just don't have the highly moral outlook as per Korean standards, nor am fond of keeping grudges. What is done is done. The scene lives because there are still fans who still have pride in it. Quitting because some assholes did something not nice some time ago is such a weaksauce excuse. What, did MBC and potential OSL sponsors think that the BW scene was some sort of inhuman niche filled with hard working angels? No one is that naive, there are assholes everywhere. And milking that old scandal excuse is mostly bullshit. The way I saw the impact of the scandal was this: OGN made a huge deal (and a nasty marketing ploy) soon after it saying that the attendance and viewership of the immediate KAIR OSL finals would determine whether the scene is still viable. The day came and the hangar was full and there was spectacle and there was drama - there was starcraft and the people had spoken - they were still supporting BW and wanted it to live. And that should've been the end of it. Edit: Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 09:52 Hesmyrr wrote:On March 05 2012 00:27 hellbound wrote:On March 04 2012 11:45 supernovamaniac wrote: LOL, still discussing about that person who destroyed MBCGame with his own hands?
I still don't know if people don't know what actually happened, or just choose to ignore what happened. I do agree with Hesmyrr though. Huh? Savior is on the MBC directors board? News to me. This shit gets blown way out of proportion. He is just an amateur now playing in an amateur league, get over it. Since snm chose to respond I might as well. Don't know why you are blaming MBC directors board here when it is their job to maximize profit for their channel. I think of it as how Blizzard tried to get intellectual rights for the BW broadcast- terrible for the scene but justifiable enough for some people to actually defend them. It's like blaming the surgeon for amputating your leg instead of the random jerkass who decided to throw acorns on the promenade for profit (crime for profit is better than one done for lols in my mind and it was for profit). Changed your post to how I see it. Though my bigass rant mostly answers you, I can do it again too, ha. I don't really blame anyone. The people I am discussing here, including you are the ones blaming someone. True MBC made a corporate decision and no one can blame them for what they do with the things they own, like their TV channels. What I have a problem with is the thinking that they were forced into this decision by savior. There was something else behind that amputation besides the acorn stuck in my foot. A lucrative deal with an amputee kpop artist mayhap? Who knows, surgeons work in mysterious ways...
So what happened after Korean Air OSL? Did they get a good review from the fans who attended? (Answer: Not entirely positive because fans complained about how OGN handled the fans leaving the stadium, stranding most fans till late night and even the producers had to apologize for the incident) Did they get a good sponsorship afterwords? (Answer: Only Bacchus; rumors state that there was apparently huge sponsor coming up right after Korean Air S1, but then Korean Air sponsors yet again. After that Bacchus sponsors for 2010, but that was it. Jin Air is basically Korean Air S3 because the person who runs Jin Air was the same person who helped set up Korean Air S1 and S2. Also, do you still think that MyStarleague happened to bring Amateurs into the scene? psh) Did Jin Air OSL's success bring many sponsors into the scene once again? Did fans stop going to MBCGame for a long time, or did MSLs start having no sponsorship situation just like OSL had during MyStarleague? (And if you don't know the answer to this one, look up how big ABCMart is compared to P2P websites that sponsored MSL)
EDIT: Oh and yes. They created a big drama about the number of fans and such. But aftermath is what matters here, not just one particular moment in history that showed how popular eSports is. To corporations, they don't want to sponsor another league that might be tampered by some matchfixing scandal, eventually tampering with the overall outcome.
What, did MBC and potential OSL sponsors think that the BW scene was some sort of inhuman niche filled with hard working angels? No one is that naive, there are assholes everywhere. And milking that old scandal excuse is mostly bullshit
LOL? eSports in Korea has gotten to this point because the teenagers and all people involved in BW loved the scene, and tried to make it work from scratch. They started from a ping pong table, and now it has gotten to become THE eSports icon around the world. These people put in their entire life to make the teams function, as well as the leagues and anything else involved in eSports. They CHANGED adult's view on gaming from putting teenagers away from studying and homework etc. to a culture that they started accepting. Then it changed again when the incident happened, making teenagers look like spoiled kids who knew nothing but playing games and trying to make extra money off in all means possible.
What I have a problem with is the thinking that they were forced into this decision by savior.
And now you're trying to force the argument into "snm is blaming only on the matchfixing scandal". And let me answer that by YES and NO. No because there were other problems that MBCGame was having (one of the primary reason was the location of the studio and how accessible it was during nights, in addition to the deficit that eSports was facing around 2009, and YET they went ahead with Nate, Hana Daetoo, Bigfile, PDPop, and ABCMart). YES because it changed the board's view on eSports completely.
The fact that savior participates definitely increases it's exposure, I'm sure lots of people tuned in just to see the fallen one play for love or hate.
Fans who still love that person (the minority) watches it. Fans who doesn't love that person (majority) ignore anything that deals with that particular person. Hardcore fans (minority) are trying to petition against that person's stream on Afreeca, cussing Afreeca for promoting such person etc.
Now, here's a question: Why that particular person instead of anyone else?
1. The person HELPED set up the matchfixing (might have participated, but that's another story). If it wasn't for that person there might have been less matchfixing incidents, and less players involved in the scandal. Simply put, he is one of the 'heads' of the matchfixing scandal.
2. Out of everyone who matchfixed, only lxxxxx and sxxxxx are still playing and earning money off from something that they helped destroy with their own hands, while almost all other players are either in military or doing something else that's not related to eSports in any means
3. Out of those two, sxxxxx officially announced that he will quit streaming to start studying. What happens next? He comes back and starts making money from streaming BW on afreeca by becoming Best BJ. So much for his 'promises'
Fans of that particular person will still tl;dr this (yes, you) because they want to believe in what they want to believe in. But if Adieu MBC, last few programs that MBC Game aired, and all other shows don't really tell you how this certain 'incident' changed people's view on eSports around 2010 and caused big damage on the scene, then I don't know what to say except they will still be chanting his name when Korean pro-BW scene finally dies off.
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Meh, I am of opinion that the damage Savior caused to the scene (not single-handedly, I admit, but I never said he did. The point is that out of all the problems that plagued the scene, Savior's behaviour was the only one that could incorrigibly be referred to as evil) is enough for me to hate him. Very little would cause me to deviate from this belief. But yeah my first comment was bit more aggressive than I wanted; I guess it'll be quite a mood-breaker to attack all Savior supporters every time he comes across my path.
I really didn't get most of your post anyway so I'll leave it at that and bow out.
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