On February 26 2012 07:36 UmiNotsuki wrote:
Nothing wrong with sports comparisons. We do call it eSports...
Nothing wrong with sports comparisons. We do call it eSports...
Lol on the edit. And lol on the comment.
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On February 26 2012 07:36 UmiNotsuki wrote: Show nested quote + On February 26 2012 07:19 ceaRshaf wrote: On February 26 2012 07:16 UmiNotsuki wrote: The reason those kinds of maps showed up in BW was that eSports was new and we didn't know what we were doing. We know better now, we know what kinds of maps are good because they make the game about the players instead of the map. That's why there's not a giant pit of doom in the middle of a soccer/football field; the game should be fun without that kind of gimmick. Here we go with the sports comparisons. How about the obstacles on a running circuit? How about the different tracks on a dirt bike race with different obstacles and narrow paths? Not all sports are played like tennis/snooker/footbal/etc with preset environments. And even football is played on rain or snow creating a different gameplay. Nothing wrong with sports comparisons. We do call it eSports... Lol on the edit. And lol on the comment. | ||
UmiNotsuki
United States633 Posts
On February 26 2012 07:37 ceaRshaf wrote: Show nested quote + On February 26 2012 07:36 UmiNotsuki wrote: On February 26 2012 07:19 ceaRshaf wrote: On February 26 2012 07:16 UmiNotsuki wrote: The reason those kinds of maps showed up in BW was that eSports was new and we didn't know what we were doing. We know better now, we know what kinds of maps are good because they make the game about the players instead of the map. That's why there's not a giant pit of doom in the middle of a soccer/football field; the game should be fun without that kind of gimmick. Here we go with the sports comparisons. How about the obstacles on a running circuit? How about the different tracks on a dirt bike race with different obstacles and narrow paths? Not all sports are played like tennis/snooker/footbal/etc with preset environments. And even football is played on rain or snow creating a different gameplay. Nothing wrong with sports comparisons. We do call it eSports... Lol on the edit. And lol on the comment. Remembered a different thread as this one, and I stand by the current comment | ||
TheTurk
United States732 Posts
If even the addition of a gold base causes imbalance, something more will just be worse. | ||
softan
Sweden113 Posts
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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
P.S. On a side note I have always felt that compared to BW this game needs more gas, so increasing the total amount of gas in a geyser or adding rich ones to hard 3/4ths may solve this concern of mine. | ||
Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
Some thought by me, active part of the mapmaking community and member of team TPW, why we won't see anything as creative as Outsider or Monty Hall anytime soon. 1) We do not have the testing capabilities at all. If you deviate too much from the standard it just becomes very hard to theorycraft about what happens, so you have to test a lot with high level players. And frankly we can not rly do that. Sure we have the ESV Korean Weekly for example where ESV can throw in 1-2 new maps every other month, and afaik GSL has some quality final testing.. and TPW has NASL qualifiers...^^. Overall tho when working on maps we rely on master/diamond players testing a bit and theorycraft about the rest, which just isn't enough for anything outside our comfort zone in most cases. 2) Map rotation is still too slow and not organized at all. Like BW we would need to be able to get a map played for a short amount of time and if it rly doesn't work out, it should just be removed. This just isn't the case in SC2 imo, there's a lot of maps that are shitty (gameplay wise) or imba but are around forever. Also because it's not organized at the moment there is just too many maps being played. With the standard (GSL) map pools + IPL maps + NASL maps + old maps that are sometimes used its easily 15+ maps that you have to be able to play which just is too much. Thus all the maps have to be quite standard, so you can be able to freestyle in a way. If we could get organized better, have less maps overall played, rotate map pools more dynamically and limit map pool size to 7 we could introduce more specific maps cos the pros would be able to train every map specifically. 3) The game is still pretty new, Blizz still tries to make it balanced/good gameplay and there isn't a whole lot of trust in the mapmakers (we actually don't get a whole lot of attention at all). The community would rather have it played safe it seems. Also for the future I can only hope this Blizzard ladder thing isn't a dependency for maps to get in tournaments. Cause then we won't see anything "non-standard" in maps ever, Blizzard doesn't even want half bases in their maps (probably the reason why they won't add Daybreak to ladder). 4) Players hate new stuff + Show Spoiler + Well actually I thought this was the case for the longest time. But for example Hasuobs is always very vocal that he doesn't like maps to be overplayed and I think Demuslim (?!) said on some show he wonders why all the maps are so similar too... there might actually be more pros out there who enjoy non-standard maps with very specific gameplay ^^ I agree I want to see maps having a greater influence on the game, making the game a lot more varied! Introducing funky maps and seeing the stuff pros can come up with in practice would be sooo exciting! And I'm looking forward to the day when 1) and/or 2) is solved so we can make this happen. Until then, be patient + Show Spoiler + We managed to patiently wait for tournaments using non-blizzard maps, for the first foreigner custom map in GSL and for the first community maps in ladder, we can do this | ||
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
I agree on the slow rotation - but yet - that's up to the tourney (why the FUCK would you still stick with Metalopolis ...). | ||
TaeTae
United Kingdom97 Posts
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brentsen
1252 Posts
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On February 26 2012 07:58 dezi wrote: 15 maps? List them - maybe if you count all those different Terminus versions (which is a joke in its own). I agree on the slow rotation - but yet - that's up to the tourney (why the FUCK would you still stick with Metalopolis ...). Ok , here is a list of maps that are used atm: General maps + Show Spoiler + 1 Antiga Shipyard 2 Bel'Shir Beach (Winter) 3 Calm Before the Storm 4 Crossfire SE 5 Daybreak 6 Dual Sight 7 Entombed Valley 8 Cloud Kingdom 9 Korhal Compound 10 Metalopolis 11 Metrolopolis 12 Shakuras Plateau 13 Tal'Darim Altar 14 Terminus SE 15 Shattered Temple -------- Maps that are atm more tournament specific + Show Spoiler + 16 IPL Crux Atlantas Spaceship 17 IPL ESV Sanshorm Mist 18 IPL Darkness Falls 19 NASL TPW Odyssey 20 NASL TPW Artifice 21 NASL TPW One Must Fall 22 NASL ESV Ohana Re 23 NASL TPW Damage Inc Plus all the unnecessary map versions of certain maps as you said. Convinced? ; ) edit: Also @ everyone who thinks rly "gimmicky" maps kill ESPORTs and stuff, pls take a look at BW maps first. | ||
DreamChaser
1649 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19564 Posts
2. Creativity is hard 3. Luck factors are bad. And here is what I want to talk about most. I hate 4 player maps because I hate scouting positions essentially at random. Sure, it rarely affects a game's outcome, BUT SO WHAT (I typed that in caps because I get really pissed when I scout last, even if my opponent is not cheesing, or going super vulnerable economic builds). | ||
dacimvrl
Vatican City State582 Posts
On February 26 2012 06:37 Gamegene wrote: Gimmicky does not mean it is good. ^ User was warned for this post | ||
ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
Though, I would love to see some fun maps, like opening and closing pathways, different shaped terran (skipping stones style), moving platforms, elevators. Not for competitive play obviously but it would be fun to have access to them for those chill nights ^^ | ||
MercilessMonkey
Canada150 Posts
On February 26 2012 08:24 dacimvrl wrote: ^ Of course not, but gimmicky does not necessarily mean bad. Of course there are plenty of gimmicks which would be terrible, but I'm sure there are some gimmicks which could make for interesting games which people would enjoy watching. Not saying I know what these are, but to just completely rule out the possibility altogether seems a bit rash. I think the biggest problem, which a lot of people have said, is that it might be close to impossible to provide maps which are balanced for all the races with a weird gimmick. For example, terran would probably benefit most from crazy mineral maps, zerg would suffer on maps with low resource counts, etc. I'd like to see some maps make an attempt at something though, so long as it wasn't too crazy as to completely invalidate normal builds. I think maps where normal builds are still possible and good but maybe need a few little tweaks could be cool to see. spelling edit | ||
saltymango
United States120 Posts
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SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Players don't play maps not in tournaments. Tournaments don't use non standard maps. Thus there is no point to making non standard maps. /End | ||
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