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Hi,
I've searched quite some time in the one million search-result for 2gate PvZ to find some help, but i couldnt find sg which could help me with this.
I'm really frustrated and feel helpless when i get owned by a 2 gate + probe rush.
Here are the scenarios:
1) Toss 2 gates and brings ~4 probes befor the first zela arives to prevent sunkens + fighting lings later on.
rep: http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=10303&name=Geo.rion vs bobah40.rep
2) Toss puts down a pylon
a) if he finds me first, i usualy would react to this with palcing another hatch near it, and getting owned by the incoming zelas +battery
b) toss brings one additional probe to help in fight vs lings + put down a battery.
rep: http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=10302&name=Geo.rion vs Krait.rep
The 2. a) scenario can be countered, because if i scout at 9 i will know if we are the closest postions to each other and i can 12 pool seeing what he does. But if we arent scenario B occures. I linked 2 replays for the other ones which show quite weel my problem.
Toughts: Even tough i scout it and i go for 11 pool immediatly i get owned badly, without sunkens my lings die to probe+zela. I dont really spam early on, that's why i have crappy APM even tough the games are 4 minutes long. I know my micro isnt very effective, but ffs my opponents are probably just as bad or worse than me. I pulled ~3 drones to put down sunken(s) no matter what but isnt working. In case you were wondering my iccup stat is C-, once i reached C but that doesnt matters at all. This kind of losses really piss me off and i get angry even bm sometimes beacause of it.
Requests: Please do not come up with the following advices:
1. Dont play Python. I dont want to play Python! But i cant host game and i often have problems finding one, and on D/C- level many ppl play only Python, so i have no choise but to play Python time and time again
2. 12pool! I want to 12 hatch and i dont think 12 pool is very effective against 2 gate here because he will delay your expo enough to gain an eco lead, could even possibly wall your ramp etc... And on the first place i might found out too late he 2gates+probe rushes.
3. Outmicro him I know ~8 lings can kill 2or3 zela+ 1or2 probes with good micro, BUT i cant! I dont have twice as good micro as my opponents, thats it. I might not have drones at the perfect positions at perfect time, and perfect lingmicro but as i said i getting owned by really bad players, who just send the zealots and click on my drones with probes, and sometimes pull an injured zeal back.
Something constructive please, how do i counter this? i feel helpless
Thanks
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Most zergs like to 9 pool vs toss to get those early lings incase of a zealot rush.
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Game 1:
stop being so greedy if you cant micro. send down more drones, dont take your gas of 2 hatches. Even so, this will still be hard if you cant micro and he 9/9's. however if he does he will not have enough probes to keep pumping zealots. you shouldn't die against a 10/12 gate with probes no matter what. just wait it out until your lings hatch if he has to many probes for you to get down a creep colony. Don't go suicide them like you did.
Game 2: you had the opportunity to lay down another sunken and you didn't. You had the drone there and nothing blocking it.
On April 09 2009 06:04 dhe95 wrote:
Most zergs like to 9 pool vs toss to get those early lings incase of a zealot rush.
No' you 9pool because it gives it kills nexus first and proxy gates as well as leaves the FE protoss playing blind, not to be safe against 2gate. defending against a non/proxy 2gate with 12 hatch is actually way easier and if done right often leaves you with a solid advantage.
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United States44439 Posts
On February 25 2009 13:09 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2009 21:01 Kwark wrote:On October 04 2008 16:32 Kwark wrote:Learn to hold 12 hatch. It's good practice and you shouldn't be losing to worse players who 2 gate. You'll still lose a few games against 2 gate but those games are criticism of your skill, not of the 12 hat 11 pool opening. With equal skill levels you should hold every time. On March 14 2008 23:05 Kwark wrote:On the 12 hatch vs 2 gate On November 01 2007 09:03 Kwark wrote:If you 12 hatch 11 pool the below could be useful On September 11 2007 05:18 Kwark wrote:
It's a micro issue in my opinion. The pivotal time (if you 12 hatch 11 pool) is when your first 8 lings hatch (you must save larva as pool completes). He'll have 1 zee, 2 probes and 2 zee almost there. You want to make 8 lings and start 2 creeps.
DO NOT ENGAGE
In a straight fight 3 zee 2 probe will rape your lings. Pure and simple. If you engage him he'll kill your lings and then kill the morphing sunks and you'll lose your nat. This is bad. However, if you don't engage then he'll kill the sunks. It's a thin line. Basically what you need to do is run round in circles with your lings staying near the morphing sunks but not engaging. If he commits to a sunk flank him. He won't be able to micro and his zees will lose and they'll be wasting attacks on the creep colony. If he doesn't commit you just wait for the sunk to finish. If he tries to run through you laugh as he's now in your main with 3 zee vs 10 or so ling (constant production) with his reinforcements cut off by sunks. Just dance your lings around near the morphing sunks and wait for him to commit. Let him chase your lings around, time is on your side. The only time you actually want to fight him is if he goes for the sunks in which case you can get a surround and slaughter him. Also, search function is your friend. Such a waste of a 3000th post. Search function is your friend.
Also if you see he's sending more than 2 probes with his rush then you send more drones to your nat and tell them all to make creep colonies. He can't stop them all and if you make too many then just cancel whichever one he attacks.
You don't really need micro to do this. He moves towards lings, lings move away. He moves towards sunkens, lings move towards him. Pretty basic, no real excuse.
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United States44439 Posts
What not to do
What to do
Step 1
If he realises he can't chase down your lings and he's just wasting time then he will usually head back towards the morphing sunkens. In that case go to step 2.
Step 2
You're not actually attacking him in this one, just staying close enough to make him very aware of the threat so he'll turn round and chase. If he does return to step 1. If he ignores the threat then go to step 3.
Step 3
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On April 09 2009 07:36 Kwark wrote:What not to doWhat to doStep 1 If he realises he can't chase down your lings and he's just wasting time then he will usually head back towards the morphing sunkens. In that case go to step 2. Step 2 You're not actually attacking him in this one, just staying close enough to make him very aware of the threat so he'll turn round and chase. If he does return to step 1. If he ignores the threat then go to step 3. Step 3
awesome pics. SANDWICH THOSE ZEALOTS~~
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that zerg expo looks like a happy face
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United States44439 Posts
Those creeps are morphing btw. That's why you're trying to buy time. If he chases, like in step 1, for long they'll finish and you'll be fine. If he attacks immediately as in step 3 then he'll be unable to use the zealots and probes effectively because the probes will be exposed and his zealots will be open to a wider concave. If he runs through then you're fine because the sunks will cut off reinforcements and your ling production will quickly outnumber the 3 zealots and 4 probes he could get inside.
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On April 09 2009 06:04 Supah wrote:Game 1: stop being so greedy if you cant micro. send down more drones, dont take your gas of 2 hatches. Even so, this will still be hard if you cant micro and he 9/9's. however if he does he will not have enough probes to keep pumping zealots. you shouldn't die against a 10/12 gate with probes no matter what. just wait it out until your lings hatch if he has to many probes for you to get down a creep colony. Don't go suicide them like you did. Game 2: you had the opportunity to lay down another sunken and you didn't. You had the drone there and nothing blocking it. Show nested quote +On April 09 2009 06:04 dhe95 wrote:
Most zergs like to 9 pool vs toss to get those early lings incase of a zealot rush. No' you 9pool because it gives it kills nexus first and proxy gates as well as leaves the FE protoss playing blind, not to be safe against 2gate. defending against a non/proxy 2gate with 12 hatch is actually way easier and if done right often leaves you with a solid advantage.
ohm, i tought an early gas and going 2 hatch muta is smart against a 2 gate, because you spend your 3rdhatchmoney for sunks/lings and if u can suriveve you are ahead techwise, won several games this way. But do you consider this a mistake? Than what is your follwup?
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On April 09 2009 07:36 Kwark wrote:What not to doWhat to doStep 1 If he realises he can't chase down your lings and he's just wasting time then he will usually head back towards the morphing sunkens. In that case go to step 2. Step 2 You're not actually attacking him in this one, just staying close enough to make him very aware of the threat so he'll turn round and chase. If he does return to step 1. If he ignores the threat then go to step 3. Step 3
i have to put down 3 sunkens? Isnt that overcomitting, i wont be too far behind if i surviev this? Just asking, i'd liek to have some insight in this
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if he is sending 4 probes that early, along with 2 gating instead of FE, AND is making a pylon + shield battery at your nat, you can make 3 sunks and not get behind.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Put down two Sunkens, not three. But everything Kwark says otherwise is correct - bait him with your Zerglings without taking hits to buy time. Isolate poorly controlled Zealots and surround single Zealots to cut reinforcements.
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Its very hard to stop 2 gate zel + probes rush with 12 hatch if its well executed :/
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Thank you all, your advises already helped me, especially i'd liek to thanks for Kwark for taking time to draw; and Chill, Elite00fm for answering the additional question
I've already improved in defending 2 gate+probes
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=10406
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