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It seems people are pretty split on this topic. I've watched my own replays and I've seen that throwing the pool down by just 1 second earlier could let me kill one more probe that's blocking for an unfinished cannon.
In the same game I lose all of my scourge a few seconds before flyer carapace is done and immediately die.
Of course there are other things to focus on, like actually winning the game later. But I can't do that if I literally just died to the corsair/zealot/archon push
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Of course as you play on you will realize that even a 3-4 second earlier 7th SCV can result in a 1 minute earlier fully saturated 3rd base or even a early natural base saturation (with the unit conflicts, build orders, etc. all together). But how StarCraft is played better is actually by knowing all of the timings for units, build orders, etc. and using this to play against your opponent.
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I do think even a fraction of a second can matter: that said, part of the thing thats interesting about Starcraft is that we decide what to prioritise. That thread which was up recently "I do this better than progamers" is a good illustration of that. A lot of pros will just move on from xyz situation to go back to macro or something like that, and so amateur players will handle that situation 'better'. A fraction of a second in your build matters but there are a lot of things which matter and I personally am usually not hyper focused on timings because I focus on other parts of my game. I do have some builds that I've fine tuned where every second matters, where I found that cutting a drone off gas very briefly can make me the mineral difference to hit a timing 1-3 seconds earlier and I bother with that.
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United Kingdom1688 Posts
Doesn't it more depend on how many 1 seconds' you're losing? At low levels, you're probably losing seconds left right and center. So any individual thing that costs you a second probably costs you very little, relative to all of your other glaring errors
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On July 26 2025 07:10 ImbaTosS wrote:Doesn't it more depend on how many 1 seconds' you're losing? At low levels, you're probably losing seconds left right and center. So any individual thing that costs you a second probably costs you very little, relative to all of your other glaring errors 
you're right, I was actually 4 seconds off perfect (perfect including getting probe harass, I could have put my pool down at 1:51 and I got it down at 1:55)
but that just means if I had 4 seconds more there might be a timing 2 seconds earlier when I get one more probe and maybe even a timing 4 seconds earlier where I fight my way to slip two lings into the main
the Lair was way way later than when I had 100 gas because I got harassed by a zealot and distracted
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A single second of inattention is enough to lose a group of Hydra to storm, but oftentimes a second saved on something like Pool or Lair timing is fairly inconsequential. So, I'd say "it depends." In your example of dying to a push, I'd say that more often than not, focusing on any single second lost is missing the forest for the trees. Sure, maybe because your Lurker eggs or something were 1 second delayed they all died to storm instead of popping out and being ready to burrow, but I think those situations are far less common (for the average player) than misreading your opponent, not having good sim city, having units exposed or out of place, etc. In short, errors which are not measured by seconds or corrected through BO optimization, or actions otherwise not conducive to "winning the game later" as you said.
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On July 29 2025 09:45 Jealous wrote: A single second of inattention is enough to lose a group of Hydra to storm, but oftentimes a second saved on something like Pool or Lair timing is fairly inconsequential. So, I'd say "it depends." In your example of dying to a push, I'd say that more often than not, focusing on any single second lost is missing the forest for the trees. Sure, maybe because your Lurker eggs or something were 1 second delayed they all died to storm instead of popping out and being ready to burrow, but I think those situations are far less common (for the average player) than misreading your opponent, not having good sim city, having units exposed or out of place, etc. In short, errors which are not measured by seconds or corrected through BO optimization, or actions otherwise not conducive to "winning the game later" as you said.
I think literally every Protoss died to cannon coming up a second too late and zerglings eating through blocking probes
Sure, you can say "well, you should make cannons earlier" but that's a different trade-off!
I think everyone can agree that playing 100% safe at every point in the game will get you economically behind
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On July 29 2025 12:39 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2025 09:45 Jealous wrote: A single second of inattention is enough to lose a group of Hydra to storm, but oftentimes a second saved on something like Pool or Lair timing is fairly inconsequential. So, I'd say "it depends." In your example of dying to a push, I'd say that more often than not, focusing on any single second lost is missing the forest for the trees. Sure, maybe because your Lurker eggs or something were 1 second delayed they all died to storm instead of popping out and being ready to burrow, but I think those situations are far less common (for the average player) than misreading your opponent, not having good sim city, having units exposed or out of place, etc. In short, errors which are not measured by seconds or corrected through BO optimization, or actions otherwise not conducive to "winning the game later" as you said. I think literally every Protoss died to cannon coming up a second too late and zerglings eating through blocking probes Sure, you can say "well, you should make cannons earlier" but that's a different trade-off! I think everyone can agree that playing 100% safe at every point in the game will get you economically behind Undoubtedly true, but if having your cannon be late is the reason for a large portion of your losses, I am guessing there is a bigger issue at play than that 1 second delay. As I said, those situations exist, but are far less common than more overarching issues which contribute to losses more consistently.
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On July 29 2025 14:44 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2025 12:39 iopq wrote:On July 29 2025 09:45 Jealous wrote: A single second of inattention is enough to lose a group of Hydra to storm, but oftentimes a second saved on something like Pool or Lair timing is fairly inconsequential. So, I'd say "it depends." In your example of dying to a push, I'd say that more often than not, focusing on any single second lost is missing the forest for the trees. Sure, maybe because your Lurker eggs or something were 1 second delayed they all died to storm instead of popping out and being ready to burrow, but I think those situations are far less common (for the average player) than misreading your opponent, not having good sim city, having units exposed or out of place, etc. In short, errors which are not measured by seconds or corrected through BO optimization, or actions otherwise not conducive to "winning the game later" as you said. I think literally every Protoss died to cannon coming up a second too late and zerglings eating through blocking probes Sure, you can say "well, you should make cannons earlier" but that's a different trade-off! I think everyone can agree that playing 100% safe at every point in the game will get you economically behind Undoubtedly true, but if having your cannon be late is the reason for a large portion of your losses, I am guessing there is a bigger issue at play than that 1 second delay. As I said, those situations exist, but are far less common than more overarching issues which contribute to losses more consistently.
Okay, I'll bite: what are the more common causes of losses and how can you improve on them? I mean, realistic improvement steps
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It certainly can. Think about pulling workers to storm/reaver/tank drops, microing air units vs scourge, and even timing of hold lurkers!
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I think the simplest example would be burrowing lurker at the very last moment before it dies. Without being too nerdy, the only way 1 second would not matter is if the game was designed so it would not register any of your actions for at least a little more than 1 second. Which would be way more difficult to play actually.
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Obviously a single second can matter and especially at high levels this is evident, but from my experience trying to improve as a mid level player I got almost no return on investment practicing these sorts of minute build order execution skills compared to other skills related to the game. In retrospect I would consider them being a total waste of time compared to other skills that I learned. I could've probably danced my workers at the start of the game for 10 seconds as a C+ player on ICCup and still beat a (non-smurf) C rank player 75%+ of the time, assuming I didn't try to do something silly like bunker rush (and to be honest even if opened with a bunker rush and couldn't get any damage in I bet I could probably make a comeback so long as I played well and capitalized on my opponents mistakes).
Sometimes with a really tight build execution you can beat someone better than you IF everthing goes according to plan and you micro well and that can make you feel like you're improving. However if you rematch that person I garuntee if they have half a brain they will just adapt a bit and completely and utterly kick your one trick pony ass.
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On July 30 2025 11:59 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2025 14:44 Jealous wrote:On July 29 2025 12:39 iopq wrote:On July 29 2025 09:45 Jealous wrote: A single second of inattention is enough to lose a group of Hydra to storm, but oftentimes a second saved on something like Pool or Lair timing is fairly inconsequential. So, I'd say "it depends." In your example of dying to a push, I'd say that more often than not, focusing on any single second lost is missing the forest for the trees. Sure, maybe because your Lurker eggs or something were 1 second delayed they all died to storm instead of popping out and being ready to burrow, but I think those situations are far less common (for the average player) than misreading your opponent, not having good sim city, having units exposed or out of place, etc. In short, errors which are not measured by seconds or corrected through BO optimization, or actions otherwise not conducive to "winning the game later" as you said. I think literally every Protoss died to cannon coming up a second too late and zerglings eating through blocking probes Sure, you can say "well, you should make cannons earlier" but that's a different trade-off! I think everyone can agree that playing 100% safe at every point in the game will get you economically behind Undoubtedly true, but if having your cannon be late is the reason for a large portion of your losses, I am guessing there is a bigger issue at play than that 1 second delay. As I said, those situations exist, but are far less common than more overarching issues which contribute to losses more consistently. Okay, I'll bite: what are the more common causes of losses and how can you improve on them? I mean, realistic improvement steps While this was true for me personally, I believe it applies to a lot of other players who are below at least A rank as well: not reading your opponent correctly.
I know I'm basically reinventing the wheel when I say this, but when I settled on one general opening in all three races, over time I started picking up on certain timings based on my scouting pattern, timing when my first Dragoon came out, timing when I do a poke into the nat or up the ramp, etc. What I mean by "timing" here is something like "Oh, he opened 2 gate but doesn't have Dragoon range yet, must be DTs" or even more basic things like "Oh, he only has one finished Pylon in his main base when he should have at least two, probably a proxy, should go find that" "must be DTs". I feel like a lot of players who are struggling with improvement below A rank might be lacking some of that insight; I know that many players outside of tournaments/team leagues might not be reviewing replays with enough of a fine-toothed comb, which is a shame because I believe that is one of the ways in which you build that kind of insight. This also opens your mind to using misinformation offensively in more subtle ways, such as hiding a Pylon with no proxy at all, kinda like the more infamous and obvious cancel tech building into pivot.
That's an overarching one + a suggestion on what to think about/what I found helpful, but more obvious and common examples I see in my opponents is suboptimal build orders (easy to research and emulate), bad scouting (even outside of the "insight" stuff I mentioned above, some people just suck at scouting, like keeping their Probe alive in the Zerg main; I found the multitask trainer map to be helpful with this), being "locked in" to a certain thing like building Turrets in your main by default in TvZ when Zerg isn't even going Muta (happens all the time, just know when to scan to check for Spire/Larva count), and other basic shit like that. I'd say that all of this basic stuff contributes more to wins and losses than a missing second here or there does by a wide margin.
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1 second does matter yes, I think a lot of 1 second examples have been brought up here already like the hold lurkers, lings not being blocked by probes in time, worker pulls during storm drops.. ect. I don’t know if you’re asking this because of your history of posts trying to meticulously improve pool timings and stuff, that being mentioned, I don’t think that stuff matters much. Lings arriving 1 second earlier may get you a free win every once in a while but chances are your opponent would have died if the lings were a second slower anyways. Also it is exponentially more important how you micro those lings and what targets to prioritize and when to stop making them and to continue to drone rather than them arriving 1 or 2 seconds sooner to your opponent.
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On August 01 2025 02:50 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2025 11:59 iopq wrote:On July 29 2025 14:44 Jealous wrote:On July 29 2025 12:39 iopq wrote:On July 29 2025 09:45 Jealous wrote: A single second of inattention is enough to lose a group of Hydra to storm, but oftentimes a second saved on something like Pool or Lair timing is fairly inconsequential. So, I'd say "it depends." In your example of dying to a push, I'd say that more often than not, focusing on any single second lost is missing the forest for the trees. Sure, maybe because your Lurker eggs or something were 1 second delayed they all died to storm instead of popping out and being ready to burrow, but I think those situations are far less common (for the average player) than misreading your opponent, not having good sim city, having units exposed or out of place, etc. In short, errors which are not measured by seconds or corrected through BO optimization, or actions otherwise not conducive to "winning the game later" as you said. I think literally every Protoss died to cannon coming up a second too late and zerglings eating through blocking probes Sure, you can say "well, you should make cannons earlier" but that's a different trade-off! I think everyone can agree that playing 100% safe at every point in the game will get you economically behind Undoubtedly true, but if having your cannon be late is the reason for a large portion of your losses, I am guessing there is a bigger issue at play than that 1 second delay. As I said, those situations exist, but are far less common than more overarching issues which contribute to losses more consistently. Okay, I'll bite: what are the more common causes of losses and how can you improve on them? I mean, realistic improvement steps While this was true for me personally, I believe it applies to a lot of other players who are below at least A rank as well: not reading your opponent correctly. I know I'm basically reinventing the wheel when I say this, but when I settled on one general opening in all three races, over time I started picking up on certain timings based on my scouting pattern, timing when my first Dragoon came out, timing when I do a poke into the nat or up the ramp, etc. What I mean by "timing" here is something like "Oh, he opened 2 gate but doesn't have Dragoon range yet, must be DTs" or even more basic things like "Oh, he only has one finished Pylon in his main base when he should have at least two, probably a proxy, should go find that" "must be DTs". I feel like a lot of players who are struggling with improvement below A rank might be lacking some of that insight; I know that many players outside of tournaments/team leagues might not be reviewing replays with enough of a fine-toothed comb, which is a shame because I believe that is one of the ways in which you build that kind of insight. This also opens your mind to using misinformation offensively in more subtle ways, such as hiding a Pylon with no proxy at all, kinda like the more infamous and obvious cancel tech building into pivot. That's an overarching one + a suggestion on what to think about/what I found helpful, but more obvious and common examples I see in my opponents is suboptimal build orders (easy to research and emulate), bad scouting (even outside of the "insight" stuff I mentioned above, some people just suck at scouting, like keeping their Probe alive in the Zerg main; I found the multitask trainer map to be helpful with this), being "locked in" to a certain thing like building Turrets in your main by default in TvZ when Zerg isn't even going Muta (happens all the time, just know when to scan to check for Spire/Larva count), and other basic shit like that. I'd say that all of this basic stuff contributes more to wins and losses than a missing second here or there does by a wide margin.
Thanks, that helps. What can I do to improve on reading my opponent? It's one thing to say lower level players don't do this well, and another to come up with ways to improve. Should I be watching replays of games I played? Watching pro games and trying to guess what people are doing? Playing my opponent's race to figure out how their builds work? All of the above?
Of course there's limited time to dedicate to improving certain aspects of the game. When I couldn't micro lings inside of the Protoss base while building I did the multitasking map. Now that I can somewhat do it, I don't practice that map anymore. My builds were slower than the pro builds, so I practiced boosting until they were almost as good. My mechanics weren't as good so I optimized my mouse skills and trying to improve location hotkey usage
One of the other aspects I specifically focused on was walling in ZvP, but I haven't done it for the latest map season. This is one of the few aspects where one square off might get a pack of speedlots running past your ramp in a flash. Worse, your own eggs might block your units in and you might not know where your reinforcements are.
On the other hand, it's taken me one year to improve my mutalisk micro. It's just not a very low hanging fruit, I spent like 30 hours in a muta micro map alone and about a thousand hours in game to improve on my best timing.
I guess I'm asking for the concrete steps to improve things that require the lowest time investment and give the best return
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