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[H]PvP: Early Reaver to Expo

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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1 2 Next All
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
September 22 2006 03:52 GMT
#1
So I've encountered this build a couple times, it involves really early robo and reaver walk off 1 gate followed by a quick expo, w/ continued reaver / goon pump. I'm a pretty safe player who likes to get obs fairly fast and attack w/ reaver goon off 1 base, but I have no idea how to counter this (besides expoing myself)by the time I scout it. Basically, what I can think of is to prevent the expo by early goon outside his base and follow up with 3 gate goon, but that involves me leaving my base open to a fast reaver drop before I can get obs in his main. I could expo myself, but that leaves me with almost no advantage what so ever and probably even behind in robo tech. I've tried a 3 gate goon reaver build, but that seemed quite iffy if the person continues a good goon reaver count like he ought to. Basically, what is my correct response to this, assuming I was doing a standard 1-2 gate goon and teching to obs?
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
September 22 2006 04:49 GMT
#2
You could try 3 gate goons, defend your base until he expands then an all out attack. If he takes advantage of you moving out and reaver drops your main, you kill his expo and his main hopefully. If he keeps the reavers on defense I think you will overpower him.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Alu_cA
Profile Joined September 2006
Canada5 Posts
September 22 2006 05:16 GMT
#3
if you had only 1 gate, i assume you made a fast robotic also. In that case, i think playing tricky
(like i always do) can be good. make a shuttle, take an island (if there is one) and upgrade speed shuttle. Then, you can harass with 4 reavers 2 shuttles speed. If the guy expoed with 1 gate he won't have enough goons to kill your shuttles and the reaver with no shuttle are dead. By now just walk on him. : )
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
September 22 2006 07:15 GMT
#4
Please post some reps if you want an exact response. It will give me more to work with, thus helping you more, and ill most likely find issues that were not presented in your post.

Ground reaver is a rather solid build much of the time. Its probably best most of the time to just play stright up, expoing around the time they do, and play for the longer game. Here are some possibilities though:

If you are playing on a map with a cliff over nat, it is often good to put some goons on their cliff, as these players rarely get shuttle fast.

Of course, at times these players dont get obs in time for possible dt, which means you can screw them over pretty badly right there, but this is more risky.

I've also seen players do this build thinking it makes them pretty much automatically safe for an early expo when they simply dont have enough goons, and could easily be overrun early.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
September 22 2006 09:49 GMT
#5
On September 22 2006 14:16 Alu_cA wrote:
if you had only 1 gate, i assume you made a fast robotic also. In that case, i think playing tricky
(like i always do) can be good. make a shuttle, take an island (if there is one) and upgrade speed shuttle. Then, you can harass with 4 reavers 2 shuttles speed. If the guy expoed with 1 gate he won't have enough goons to kill your shuttles and the reaver with no shuttle are dead. By now just walk on him. : )


I dont understand. Why take an island expo? Wouldnt he have reaver drop before you? also, you would have superior unit count unless you already lost a ground battle.

Why take an expo difficult to defend, easy for him to expand....and its important to maynard, especially your first few expos... I dont understand :/
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
akamufu
Profile Joined June 2006
Korea (South)321 Posts
September 22 2006 11:26 GMT
#6
just keep like 2-3 goons in ur minerals. and if ur playing like on like lt especially, try to make a robo near his base so u can re build ur shuttle and stuff wiithout wasting so much time taking the shuttle back to the base. and what about 2 gate zealot rush? that usually happens to me and even when i super micro, he comes with more and eventually corners my goons.
Its all fun and games until Boxer loses a marine.
strik.fr
Profile Joined May 2006
France212 Posts
September 22 2006 12:19 GMT
#7
its why pvp is shit .. if u can't take risk and accept to lose with that then don't play pvp .
my top 5 forever 1)nada 2)julyzerg 3)iloveoov 4)Boxer 5)Nal_ra
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
September 22 2006 12:26 GMT
#8
uh if anybody wont take risks and/or wont accept losses, then they should not play bw at all, seriously.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
GuYuTe-
Profile Joined February 2005
United States550 Posts
September 22 2006 17:17 GMT
#9
3 gate zealot.
Beamo
Profile Joined March 2003
France1279 Posts
September 22 2006 19:07 GMT
#10
On September 22 2006 12:52 Aphelion02 wrote:
So I've encountered this build a couple times, it involves really early robo and reaver walk off 1 gate followed by a quick expo, w/ continued reaver / goon pump. I'm a pretty safe player who likes to get obs fairly fast and attack w/ reaver goon off 1 base, but I have no idea how to counter this (besides expoing myself)by the time I scout it. Basically, what I can think of is to prevent the expo by early goon outside his base and follow up with 3 gate goon, but that involves me leaving my base open to a fast reaver drop before I can get obs in his main. I could expo myself, but that leaves me with almost no advantage what so ever and probably even behind in robo tech. I've tried a 3 gate goon reaver build, but that seemed quite iffy if the person continues a good goon reaver count like he ought to. Basically, what is my correct response to this, assuming I was doing a standard 1-2 gate goon and teching to obs?


You say your problem is you discover his build too late with obs to counter it -> map his natural with a probe. If U see him expand early you can expect that build and go 3 gate goons to overpower him
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
September 22 2006 21:58 GMT
#11
cannon his cliff
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16965 Posts
September 23 2006 00:22 GMT
#12
On September 23 2006 06:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:
cannon his cliff


XD

Actually, if you would have cannoned my cliff instead of Reaver dropping, you might have gotten more than one Probe kill.
Moderator
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
September 24 2006 05:20 GMT
#13
Or you could try not doing the same thing over and over and go for two gate zeal. Two gate zeal will pretty much own one gate robo, if your micro is good. You're forcing him to get up another gate before his reaver. If he doesn't you just kill what's on the ramp and head for probes while getting goons. I guess it wouldn't work vs progamers but then again you arent' playing progamers.

I played many people on PGT who'd stick to the same fucked up build vs 2 gates and get run over by zeals. I played nony and he got gates and massed zeals to defend, because that's the only safe way to beat this (and he did, bastard).

So basicly what I'm saying is, instead of being boring and waiting for tech, be aggresive and get in his base so you can SEE his tech right there

Also, make sure to attack as early as possible if you know he's going 1 gate. Try to get one zeal in and harass his probes, that way he'll leave the entrance open for the next two to come in. Try not to lose any zeals for nothing, and just run around in his base untill you out-number him. It shouldn't be long if he's getting one-gate and you have two.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-09-25 05:57:26
September 24 2006 06:04 GMT
#14
Pretty decent advice above, but that would not esentially deal with the issue, it is just changing the circumstances so you'll have slightly diffrent issues.

Edit- My response to cube's strategy in general:
My limited experiece with 2gate to forge expo has shown that at times these players slack off zeal production for cannons/nexus, and if one keeps up consistant zeals out of 2gate there is the possibility of overwhelming this strategy early. There is also the fact that you'll spend quite a bit on cannons and go for an early expo, distrupting consistant production somewhat. At what point does this earlier expo make up for this? You also wont have ob anytime soon, so you have little idea what your oppoent is doing, :/. A well timed one base attack with reavers seem to me to be work fine as you'll be in a defensive position, and reavers take care of cannons well, and the fight will be in a choke which is good for reavers as well. Also, gives the option for harass if you dont defend main well enough. If they go ground reaver and grab their expo slighly later then you oh well, are they really that far behind. So they will have slighly later expo, but they will also have ob scouting, more consistnat unit production overall, and the possibility of a shuttle to cliff you if your playing on a map with cliff over nat. Seems pretty even there as well. So, im not sayign this is a bad strategy, it is intresting, and can work, but it also has its issues.

With opening 2gate more would depend on the zeals and attacking then with just stright up tech and build order wars, so if you think that is a strong point of yours go for it.

Overpowering them with 3gate goon no robo seems to be the surest way to win fast, but you should only do this when you are sure they are going for this strategy, and not dt or something else that would spank you. Also, if you are sure they are doing 1gate robo ground reavers to early expo, you could play the other extreeme and do something such as 1gate expo for the economic advantage.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
September 24 2006 06:32 GMT
#15
On September 24 2006 14:20 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote:
Or you could try not doing the same thing over and over and go for two gate zeal. Two gate zeal will pretty much own one gate robo, if your micro is good. You're forcing him to get up another gate before his reaver. If he doesn't you just kill what's on the ramp and head for probes while getting goons. I guess it wouldn't work vs progamers but then again you arent' playing progamers.

I played many people on PGT who'd stick to the same fucked up build vs 2 gates and get run over by zeals. I played nony and he got gates and massed zeals to defend, because that's the only safe way to beat this (and he did, bastard).

So basicly what I'm saying is, instead of being boring and waiting for tech, be aggresive and get in his base so you can SEE his tech right there

Also, make sure to attack as early as possible if you know he's going 1 gate. Try to get one zeal in and harass his probes, that way he'll leave the entrance open for the next two to come in. Try not to lose any zeals for nothing, and just run around in his base untill you out-number him. It shouldn't be long if he's getting one-gate and you have two.


Even if they do defend, you should come out equal after this?
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
September 24 2006 07:42 GMT
#16
Templar to storm those slow worms :D
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
September 24 2006 09:18 GMT
#17
On September 24 2006 15:32 fusionsdf wrote:
[removed quote within quote]

Even if they do defend, you should come out equal after this?


Well they can't defend with one gate vs two unless you either screw up microing, or they bring in probes and lose some eco advantage, or it's a map like 815 (lol). Otherwise keeping pressure will give you a clear advantage at the begging. Yes, it's not a "counter" to 1-gate robo, but it's a sure way to know they won't do that.

If your zeals won't kill him, you can either:
a) Forge->Expo (helps vs DT, but you need to hurry to get 2 goons to defend against reaver)
b) gas->third gate->goon (if you have done damage and you want to over-power him right there, but you may die to hidden dt tech)
c) gas->tech (either dt or reav)

Basicly, if you suspect he's trying one gate, you can get early advantage by getting two gates. That's all I'm saying. And if he tries one gate robo/dt then you should straight-up hammer him with zeals. Zeal micro is not that hard, but it's vital that you macro well and not killl all his units and then realise you have 800 minerals or something.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42318 Posts
September 24 2006 10:32 GMT
#18
i use battery a lot when i tech vs 2 gate. works nicely on ramp.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
September 24 2006 11:15 GMT
#19
On September 24 2006 18:18 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote:
[removed quote within quote]

Well they can't defend with one gate vs two unless you either screw up microing, or they bring in probes and lose some eco advantage, or it's a map like 815 (lol). Otherwise keeping pressure will give you a clear advantage at the begging. Yes, it's not a "counter" to 1-gate robo, but it's a sure way to know they won't do that.

If your zeals won't kill him, you can either:
a) Forge->Expo (helps vs DT, but you need to hurry to get 2 goons to defend against reaver)
b) gas->third gate->goon (if you have done damage and you want to over-power him right there, but you may die to hidden dt tech)
c) gas->tech (either dt or reav)

Basicly, if you suspect he's trying one gate, you can get early advantage by getting two gates. That's all I'm saying. And if he tries one gate robo/dt then you should straight-up hammer him with zeals. Zeal micro is not that hard, but it's vital that you macro well and not killl all his units and then realise you have 800 minerals or something.


So do you build 2nd gate as soon as your probe sees one gate? Would'nt this be a bit slow at cross positions?

Also, from the other side...if he stays one gate, he is going to go for an inital goon and have it out shortly after you arrive unless its cross positions, in which case it should be waiting for you as you arrive, right? Your second gate should be almost complete at this point I think (assuming you built as soon as you could after your initial probe scout). Is it better for him to produce zealots or goons? I'm assuming he is going to second gate soon after his probe sees yours. Does it make sense for him to build cannons at his min line?

Also I would just like to clarify, that if he goes goons, you attack his goons, and if he goes zeals you try to attack his probes as much as you can until you have superior numbers?

Thank you for your info. I use two gate quite a bit, although I dont play much pvp, but I dont think I really understand all the details and philosophy of it.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
September 25 2006 05:02 GMT
#20
On September 24 2006 20:15 fusionsdf wrote:
[removed quote within quote]

So do you build 2nd gate as soon as your probe sees one gate? Would'nt this be a bit slow at cross positions?

Also, from the other side...if he stays one gate, he is going to go for an inital goon and have it out shortly after you arrive unless its cross positions, in which case it should be waiting for you as you arrive, right? Your second gate should be almost complete at this point I think (assuming you built as soon as you could after your initial probe scout). Is it better for him to produce zealots or goons? I'm assuming he is going to second gate soon after his probe sees yours. Does it make sense for him to build cannons at his min line?

Also I would just like to clarify, that if he goes goons, you attack his goons, and if he goes zeals you try to attack his probes as much as you can until you have superior numbers?

Thank you for your info. I use two gate quite a bit, although I dont play much pvp, but I dont think I really understand all the details and philosophy of it.


Well, no. If you are going to go 2 gates it's better to go 10/12 gate (if you're the assaulter that is). If you counter two gates, then you can get the second one later, because you don't lose a lot of time traveling from one part of the map to the other.

So, let's take a normal game and I'll tell you about what he can do to defend. You start 10/12 gate. He scouts you late or decides to defend. Best thing he can do is get 3 zeals and then goon. If he blocks the ramp and you can't get in to harass then you'll have to seriously out-micro him to break the ramp clearly. (without losing more than 3-4 zeals).

If you think you can't break his ramp just get a forge, expo, place 2-3 cannons in front to protect for dark/goons and get goons as soon as possible. I do this a lot and it's not risky unless the other guy is very good (like in my match vs nony, he continuously harassed my zeal/can with goon while 3-gating and eventually overpowered me - in this situation, adding one or two more cannons is acceptable, because of your economic advantage. i didn't, and lost.). After you got expo just hurry up and get a lot of goons and range and attack him. You should have way more goons out of 2 bases. You can even risk not getting obs untill he gets dt, since u have cannons defending.

Now, for the fun part, if you do get in his base (this will happen quite often really). First few zeals you should micro to harass his probes. Don't risk losing them to kill one probe, because even him grouping them to one side means you get economic advantage. If he pumps out zeals, just try to micro them around until you either have enough, or have started your expo and have clear advantage. Assuming he went a second gate and is getting zeals, you probably won't be able to over-power him in his base, so just settle for expo or tech instead (dt might work).

If he's getting goons, you're gonna have to kill probes. Say he has 2 goons, you just pick 2 zeals and order attack on those, and micro the other zeals to kill probes. He's gonna have to back-step a lot to kill your zeals, while you can rape some probes in the meantime. If he's getting 2 gate goons and you get expo, add one or two more cannons. You should easily get a few probe kills, and with the expo, you'll be able to over-power him soon enough.

If you really want to learn this, best thing to do is to play a lot of 2-gate openings then fast expo vs toss. The build is easy: pylon-10gate-12-gate-pylon etc. Then when you have some zeals around in his base add forge, and then expo w/ cannons. Once cannons are out get gas at main and cybe core, and mass goons. I can't tell you exactly what to build because it depends a lot on the game itself. As I said, if he gets 3 gates you'll need 4-5 cannons to defend in front. If he's getting tech one more cannon at main is needed. But basicly, switch to goons as soon as you get your expo, since mass goons are good until storm comes, and you need not worry about DT because you have cannons.

I hope I've explained clear enough. Anyway, best thing to do is just try this 20-30 times and you'll see just about everything that helps or can go wrong, it's much better playing and learning from your mistakes then have someone try to explain all the possible situations that can happen.

Oh, and if he goes cannons, then just expo with 1-2 cannons vs dt in front, and get goons as soon as possible to defend vs reavers. Not much he can do if he gets forge, since his army will be small and his tech delayed.

Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
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