EPT[H]PvP: Early Reaver to Expo
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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micronesia
United States24792 Posts
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Alu_cA
Canada5 Posts
(like i always do) can be good. make a shuttle, take an island (if there is one) and upgrade speed shuttle. Then, you can harass with 4 reavers 2 shuttles speed. If the guy expoed with 1 gate he won't have enough goons to kill your shuttles and the reaver with no shuttle are dead. By now just walk on him. : ) | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Ground reaver is a rather solid build much of the time. Its probably best most of the time to just play stright up, expoing around the time they do, and play for the longer game. Here are some possibilities though: If you are playing on a map with a cliff over nat, it is often good to put some goons on their cliff, as these players rarely get shuttle fast. Of course, at times these players dont get obs in time for possible dt, which means you can screw them over pretty badly right there, but this is more risky. I've also seen players do this build thinking it makes them pretty much automatically safe for an early expo when they simply dont have enough goons, and could easily be overrun early. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On September 22 2006 14:16 Alu_cA wrote: if you had only 1 gate, i assume you made a fast robotic also. In that case, i think playing tricky (like i always do) can be good. make a shuttle, take an island (if there is one) and upgrade speed shuttle. Then, you can harass with 4 reavers 2 shuttles speed. If the guy expoed with 1 gate he won't have enough goons to kill your shuttles and the reaver with no shuttle are dead. By now just walk on him. : ) I dont understand. Why take an island expo? Wouldnt he have reaver drop before you? also, you would have superior unit count unless you already lost a ground battle. Why take an expo difficult to defend, easy for him to expand....and its important to maynard, especially your first few expos... I dont understand :/ | ||
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akamufu
Korea (South)321 Posts
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strik.fr
France212 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
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GuYuTe-
United States550 Posts
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On September 22 2006 12:52 Aphelion02 wrote: So I've encountered this build a couple times, it involves really early robo and reaver walk off 1 gate followed by a quick expo, w/ continued reaver / goon pump. I'm a pretty safe player who likes to get obs fairly fast and attack w/ reaver goon off 1 base, but I have no idea how to counter this (besides expoing myself)by the time I scout it. Basically, what I can think of is to prevent the expo by early goon outside his base and follow up with 3 gate goon, but that involves me leaving my base open to a fast reaver drop before I can get obs in his main. I could expo myself, but that leaves me with almost no advantage what so ever and probably even behind in robo tech. I've tried a 3 gate goon reaver build, but that seemed quite iffy if the person continues a good goon reaver count like he ought to. Basically, what is my correct response to this, assuming I was doing a standard 1-2 gate goon and teching to obs? You say your problem is you discover his build too late with obs to counter it -> map his natural with a probe. If U see him expand early you can expect that build and go 3 gate goons to overpower him | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Empyrean
17077 Posts
On September 23 2006 06:58 GrandInquisitor wrote: cannon his cliff XD Actually, if you would have cannoned my cliff instead of Reaver dropping, you might have gotten more than one Probe kill. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
I played many people on PGT who'd stick to the same fucked up build vs 2 gates and get run over by zeals. I played nony and he got gates and massed zeals to defend, because that's the only safe way to beat this (and he did, bastard). So basicly what I'm saying is, instead of being boring and waiting for tech, be aggresive and get in his base so you can SEE his tech right there  Also, make sure to attack as early as possible if you know he's going 1 gate. Try to get one zeal in and harass his probes, that way he'll leave the entrance open for the next two to come in. Try not to lose any zeals for nothing, and just run around in his base untill you out-number him. It shouldn't be long if he's getting one-gate and you have two. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Edit- My response to cube's strategy in general: My limited experiece with 2gate to forge expo has shown that at times these players slack off zeal production for cannons/nexus, and if one keeps up consistant zeals out of 2gate there is the possibility of overwhelming this strategy early. There is also the fact that you'll spend quite a bit on cannons and go for an early expo, distrupting consistant production somewhat. At what point does this earlier expo make up for this? You also wont have ob anytime soon, so you have little idea what your oppoent is doing, :/. A well timed one base attack with reavers seem to me to be work fine as you'll be in a defensive position, and reavers take care of cannons well, and the fight will be in a choke which is good for reavers as well. Also, gives the option for harass if you dont defend main well enough. If they go ground reaver and grab their expo slighly later then you oh well, are they really that far behind. So they will have slighly later expo, but they will also have ob scouting, more consistnat unit production overall, and the possibility of a shuttle to cliff you if your playing on a map with cliff over nat. Seems pretty even there as well. So, im not sayign this is a bad strategy, it is intresting, and can work, but it also has its issues. With opening 2gate more would depend on the zeals and attacking then with just stright up tech and build order wars, so if you think that is a strong point of yours go for it. Overpowering them with 3gate goon no robo seems to be the surest way to win fast, but you should only do this when you are sure they are going for this strategy, and not dt or something else that would spank you. Also, if you are sure they are doing 1gate robo ground reavers to early expo, you could play the other extreeme and do something such as 1gate expo for the economic advantage. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On September 24 2006 14:20 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote: Or you could try not doing the same thing over and over and go for two gate zeal. Two gate zeal will pretty much own one gate robo, if your micro is good. You're forcing him to get up another gate before his reaver. If he doesn't you just kill what's on the ramp and head for probes while getting goons. I guess it wouldn't work vs progamers but then again you arent' playing progamers. I played many people on PGT who'd stick to the same fucked up build vs 2 gates and get run over by zeals. I played nony and he got gates and massed zeals to defend, because that's the only safe way to beat this (and he did, bastard). So basicly what I'm saying is, instead of being boring and waiting for tech, be aggresive and get in his base so you can SEE his tech right there Also, make sure to attack as early as possible if you know he's going 1 gate. Try to get one zeal in and harass his probes, that way he'll leave the entrance open for the next two to come in. Try not to lose any zeals for nothing, and just run around in his base untill you out-number him. It shouldn't be long if he's getting one-gate and you have two. Even if they do defend, you should come out equal after this? | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
On September 24 2006 15:32 fusionsdf wrote: [removed quote within quote] Even if they do defend, you should come out equal after this? Well they can't defend with one gate vs two unless you either screw up microing, or they bring in probes and lose some eco advantage, or it's a map like 815 (lol). Otherwise keeping pressure will give you a clear advantage at the begging. Yes, it's not a "counter" to 1-gate robo, but it's a sure way to know they won't do that. If your zeals won't kill him, you can either: a) Forge->Expo (helps vs DT, but you need to hurry to get 2 goons to defend against reaver) b) gas->third gate->goon (if you have done damage and you want to over-power him right there, but you may die to hidden dt tech) c) gas->tech (either dt or reav) Basicly, if you suspect he's trying one gate, you can get early advantage by getting two gates. That's all I'm saying. And if he tries one gate robo/dt then you should straight-up hammer him with zeals. Zeal micro is not that hard, but it's vital that you macro well and not killl all his units and then realise you have 800 minerals or something. | ||
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KwarK
United States44242 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On September 24 2006 18:18 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote: [removed quote within quote] Well they can't defend with one gate vs two unless you either screw up microing, or they bring in probes and lose some eco advantage, or it's a map like 815 (lol). Otherwise keeping pressure will give you a clear advantage at the begging. Yes, it's not a "counter" to 1-gate robo, but it's a sure way to know they won't do that. If your zeals won't kill him, you can either: a) Forge->Expo (helps vs DT, but you need to hurry to get 2 goons to defend against reaver) b) gas->third gate->goon (if you have done damage and you want to over-power him right there, but you may die to hidden dt tech) c) gas->tech (either dt or reav) Basicly, if you suspect he's trying one gate, you can get early advantage by getting two gates. That's all I'm saying. And if he tries one gate robo/dt then you should straight-up hammer him with zeals. Zeal micro is not that hard, but it's vital that you macro well and not killl all his units and then realise you have 800 minerals or something. So do you build 2nd gate as soon as your probe sees one gate? Would'nt this be a bit slow at cross positions? Also, from the other side...if he stays one gate, he is going to go for an inital goon and have it out shortly after you arrive unless its cross positions, in which case it should be waiting for you as you arrive, right? Your second gate should be almost complete at this point I think (assuming you built as soon as you could after your initial probe scout). Is it better for him to produce zealots or goons? I'm assuming he is going to second gate soon after his probe sees yours. Does it make sense for him to build cannons at his min line? Also I would just like to clarify, that if he goes goons, you attack his goons, and if he goes zeals you try to attack his probes as much as you can until you have superior numbers? Thank you for your info. I use two gate quite a bit, although I dont play much pvp, but I dont think I really understand all the details and philosophy of it. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
On September 24 2006 20:15 fusionsdf wrote: [removed quote within quote] So do you build 2nd gate as soon as your probe sees one gate? Would'nt this be a bit slow at cross positions? Also, from the other side...if he stays one gate, he is going to go for an inital goon and have it out shortly after you arrive unless its cross positions, in which case it should be waiting for you as you arrive, right? Your second gate should be almost complete at this point I think (assuming you built as soon as you could after your initial probe scout). Is it better for him to produce zealots or goons? I'm assuming he is going to second gate soon after his probe sees yours. Does it make sense for him to build cannons at his min line? Also I would just like to clarify, that if he goes goons, you attack his goons, and if he goes zeals you try to attack his probes as much as you can until you have superior numbers? Thank you for your info. I use two gate quite a bit, although I dont play much pvp, but I dont think I really understand all the details and philosophy of it. Well, no. If you are going to go 2 gates it's better to go 10/12 gate (if you're the assaulter that is). If you counter two gates, then you can get the second one later, because you don't lose a lot of time traveling from one part of the map to the other. So, let's take a normal game and I'll tell you about what he can do to defend. You start 10/12 gate. He scouts you late or decides to defend. Best thing he can do is get 3 zeals and then goon. If he blocks the ramp and you can't get in to harass then you'll have to seriously out-micro him to break the ramp clearly. (without losing more than 3-4 zeals). If you think you can't break his ramp just get a forge, expo, place 2-3 cannons in front to protect for dark/goons and get goons as soon as possible. I do this a lot and it's not risky unless the other guy is very good (like in my match vs nony, he continuously harassed my zeal/can with goon while 3-gating and eventually overpowered me - in this situation, adding one or two more cannons is acceptable, because of your economic advantage. i didn't, and lost.). After you got expo just hurry up and get a lot of goons and range and attack him. You should have way more goons out of 2 bases. You can even risk not getting obs untill he gets dt, since u have cannons defending. Now, for the fun part, if you do get in his base (this will happen quite often really). First few zeals you should micro to harass his probes. Don't risk losing them to kill one probe, because even him grouping them to one side means you get economic advantage. If he pumps out zeals, just try to micro them around until you either have enough, or have started your expo and have clear advantage. Assuming he went a second gate and is getting zeals, you probably won't be able to over-power him in his base, so just settle for expo or tech instead (dt might work). If he's getting goons, you're gonna have to kill probes. Say he has 2 goons, you just pick 2 zeals and order attack on those, and micro the other zeals to kill probes. He's gonna have to back-step a lot to kill your zeals, while you can rape some probes in the meantime. If he's getting 2 gate goons and you get expo, add one or two more cannons. You should easily get a few probe kills, and with the expo, you'll be able to over-power him soon enough. If you really want to learn this, best thing to do is to play a lot of 2-gate openings then fast expo vs toss. The build is easy: pylon-10gate-12-gate-pylon etc. Then when you have some zeals around in his base add forge, and then expo w/ cannons. Once cannons are out get gas at main and cybe core, and mass goons. I can't tell you exactly what to build because it depends a lot on the game itself. As I said, if he gets 3 gates you'll need 4-5 cannons to defend in front. If he's getting tech one more cannon at main is needed. But basicly, switch to goons as soon as you get your expo, since mass goons are good until storm comes, and you need not worry about DT because you have cannons. I hope I've explained clear enough. Anyway, best thing to do is just try this 20-30 times and you'll see just about everything that helps or can go wrong, it's much better playing and learning from your mistakes then have someone try to explain all the possible situations that can happen. Oh, and if he goes cannons, then just expo with 1-2 cannons vs dt in front, and get goons as soon as possible to defend vs reavers. Not much he can do if he gets forge, since his army will be small and his tech delayed. | ||
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Alu_cA
Canada5 Posts
On September 22 2006 18:49 fusionsdf wrote: [removed quote within quote] I dont understand. Why take an island expo? Wouldnt he have reaver drop before you? also, you would have superior unit count unless you already lost a ground battle. Why take an expo difficult to defend, easy for him to expand....and its important to maynard, especially your first few expos... I dont understand :/ Well... if you don't understand that the guy won't have obs to know you have an island + fast shuttle will help you to back your island + you can transfer 8 probes to island + u will get your natural easier. id rather having speed shuttles + 4 reavers + my own ramp than make a do-or-die attack OR expend after him and being behind. if you "don't understand" you are not smart enough to play brood war  :O :D  | ||
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Flaccid
8917 Posts
Everytime I see someone one-gate robo to expo, I skip expoing, go like 5 gates off of my main, and run him over BGH style before his expo advantage kicks in. And if that doesn't work I call him a pussy and leave the game. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On September 25 2006 14:23 Alu_cA wrote: [removed quote within quote] Well... if you don't understand that the guy won't have obs to know you have an island + fast shuttle will help you to back your island + you can transfer 8 probes to island + u will get your natural easier. id rather having speed shuttles + 4 reavers + my own ramp than make a do-or-die attack OR expend after him and being behind. if you "don't understand" you are not smart enough to play brood war :O :D So you're saying you can only beat this on island maps? That'd be pretty weak I must say . | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On September 25 2006 15:20 Flaccid wrote: Meh, Everytime I see someone one-gate robo to expo, I skip expoing, go like 5 gates off of my main, and run him over BGH style before his expo advantage kicks in. And if that doesn't work I call him a pussy and leave the game. I don't see how you can sustain more than 3 gates if you play that way.. On September 25 2006 14:02 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote: So, let's take a normal game and I'll tell you about what he can do to defend. You start 10/12 gate. He scouts you late or decides to defend. Best thing he can do is get 3 zeals and then goon. If he blocks the ramp and you can't get in to harass then you'll have to seriously out-micro him to break the ramp clearly. (without losing more than 3-4 zeals). If you think you can't break his ramp just get a forge, expo, place 2-3 cannons in front to protect for dark/goons and get goons as soon as possible. I do this a lot and it's not risky unless the other guy is very good (like in my match vs nony, he continuously harassed my zeal/can with goon while 3-gating and eventually overpowered me - in this situation, adding one or two more cannons is acceptable, because of your economic advantage. i didn't, and lost.). After you got expo just hurry up and get a lot of goons and range and attack him. You should have way more goons out of 2 bases. You can even risk not getting obs untill he gets dt, since u have cannons defending. This is very detailed.. but aren't you necessariliy depending upon the opponent's lack of skill / control in certain areas? | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On September 25 2006 14:23 Alu_cA wrote: [removed quote within quote] Well... if you don't understand that the guy won't have obs to know you have an island + fast shuttle will help you to back your island + you can transfer 8 probes to island + u will get your natural easier. id rather having speed shuttles + 4 reavers + my own ramp than make a do-or-die attack OR expend after him and being behind. if you "don't understand" you are not smart enough to play brood war :O :D Don't bm please. Here is the original quote: On September 22 2006 12:52 Aphelion02 wrote: So I've encountered this build a couple times, it involves really early robo and reaver walk off 1 gate followed by a quick expo, w/ continued reaver / goon pump. I'm a pretty safe player who likes to get obs fairly fast and attack w/ reaver goon off 1 base, but I have no idea how to counter this (besides expoing myself)by the time I scout it. Basically, what I can think of is to prevent the expo by early goon outside his base and follow up with 3 gate goon, but that involves me leaving my base open to a fast reaver drop before I can get obs in his main. I could expo myself, but that leaves me with almost no advantage what so ever and probably even behind in robo tech. I've tried a 3 gate goon reaver build, but that seemed quite iffy if the person continues a good goon reaver count like he ought to. Basically, what is my correct response to this, assuming I was doing a standard 1-2 gate goon and teching to obs? If I understand this correctly, the whole point is for him to rush to reavers and secure his nat...Meanwhile, you will be behind in tech, but ahead in supply. He will get robo tech faster than you. If you hold up in your base, take your nat, then go for some random island expo, hes probably going to have a shuttle by that time. Also, because you are just standing around with a whole bunch of units waiting for him to tech...your basically wasting your entire advantage in my view. Basically I can't see him quick teching to reavers and still NOT having his shuttle by the time you take your island expo...Not to mention island expos are easier to attack than defend early game, because A: you probably wont have the air/drop power to respond to him, and B: you would be wrecking your economy if you cannoned it up. Or do you plan to leave units hanging out on your island expo while you lose ground wars? I don't understand how you envision getting 4 reavers + shuttle + speed before he does. I really don't. Maybe you have a replay to make it clearer? Your build seems both passive and unrealistic. Thank you for your help cubed :D. I will be practicing this build. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
On September 25 2006 16:36 Aphelion02 wrote: This is very detailed.. but aren't you necessariliy depending upon the opponent's lack of skill / control in certain areas? Hm, well that depends. If he has one gate and you have two, and he's refusing to get another one and getting reav for example, then no. If his second gate isn't done yet, then no. Picture this scenario: He has 2 zeals on ramp getting goon. you attack with 3 zeals and kill his zeals, with 2 remaining, life on yellow zone. Another goon comes out. Get one zeal to chase goon, and the other one to hit his probe line. Now he might micro really good and kill that zeal, but you still buy yourself time to harass probes, so you're not hoping to kill his goons because of his lack of skill, but rather hoping to kill enough probes. Also you have 2 more zeals coming, so you get those to chase goons too, and because they have full life they'll be really hard to micro against, especially if you set them each on an individual goon. I'm not saying a good player will lose all his probes and such, but yeah, creating havok is one part of this strat too. Frankly, there have been few players to push back my rush with one gate. And even so, the match streched on for more than 15 or so minutes, so it's not a do-or-die strat. You just have to know when to back off, and what to do. For example if he has reaver bay out, and a few goons (2-3), then stop sending zeals even if those goons are in the yellow/red, and get goons yourself. Don't expo all the time, blindly .I've done only this strat last seazon on pgt and ended up with a 22-1 pvp stat (b- high, but i might have encountered just noobs, since my other stats were crap ). Only about half were won with zeals alone (mostly vs those who stuck to one-gate no matter what), more in mid-game though, due to early advantage. The loss was vs a guy who just out-played me.Anyway, as I said before, as long as you keep your macro alive, this strat is ok. Pratice it a few times and you'll learn when to back off, when to actually micro your zeals to kill his goons, when to expo, when to get goon, etc. | ||
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Flaccid
8917 Posts
On September 25 2006 16:36 Aphelion02 wrote: [removed quote within quote] I don't see how you can sustain more than 3 gates if you play that way.. Then you must open your eyes... FOR YOU ARE TOO BLIND TO SEE THE LIGHT. edit: easy - you aren't spending it on anything else (tech, upgrades, expos, etc.). | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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