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Cry Me a River - Balance Poll

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 11 12 13 Next All
dr.fahrenheit
Profile Joined January 2013
Austria101 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-10 17:53:01
July 08 2013 23:55 GMT
#1
[image loading]

On the occasion of the upcoming balance patch (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420549) I decided to try to get the oppinion of the TL users on a question which I personally have found a clear answer to:

"Over the past couple of years since the launch of WoL up until now, the players of which race have expressed their dissatisfaction with the balance of SC 2 most often respectively the players of which race had the strongest presence in this regard?"

And before this turns into an awful and childish flamewar about who whines the most please read the following before taking the poll and/or posting:
  • The answer should just reflect your subjective overall impression which you got from reading TL, Reddit, Battle.net forums, any websites/forums you could think of, watching streams, what your friends tell you etc.... the operative words being "subjective impression". Don't try to sell them as absolute truths.

  • I'm not interested if the various expressions of dissatisfaction are/were justified or not, if they are/were reasonable or not etc. Again it's just about your subjective impression of which race had "the strongest presence regarding questions of balance" from the start of SCII up until now (irrelevant if the complaints had good reasons or not, this -despite the title- is not about balance it's about perceived presence)

  • Please answer all polls (which actually concern you)! (Because it's interesting)

  • Please don't post comments like: "All 'insert race here' ever does and did since the beginning is whine/complain/bitch etc."

  • If this poll should create any interesting information please don't interpret it in the following way: "All 'insert race here' ever does and did since the beginning is whine/complain/bitch etc. I knew it."

  • gl hf

Poll: Which players have expressed their complaints about balance the most?

Zerg Players (1490)
 
73%

Terran Players (360)
 
18%

Protoss Players (169)
 
8%

Random Players (20)
 
1%

2039 total votes

Your vote: Which players have expressed their complaints about balance the most?

(Vote): Zerg Players
(Vote): Protoss Players
(Vote): Terran Players
(Vote): Random Players


Poll: I am a...

Terran Player (600)
 
33%

Protoss Player (564)
 
31%

Zerg Player (466)
 
25%

Random Player (206)
 
11%

1836 total votes

Your vote: I am a...

(Vote): Terran Player
(Vote): Zerg Player
(Vote): Protoss Player
(Vote): Random Player



edit for additional polls (comment from 32) edit 2: spoilered out because of limited value
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: I play Z and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

Zerg (344)
 
62%

Terran (135)
 
24%

Protoss (74)
 
13%

Random (6)
 
1%

559 total votes

Your vote: I play Z and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Random


Poll: I play T and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

Zerg (530)
 
83%

Protoss (55)
 
9%

Terran (50)
 
8%

Randam (5)
 
1%

640 total votes

Your vote: I play T and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Randam


Poll: I play P and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

Zerg (460)
 
74%

Terran (123)
 
20%

Protoss (31)
 
5%

Random (4)
 
1%

618 total votes

Your vote: I play P and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Random


Poll: I play R and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

Zerg (240)
 
70%

Terran (56)
 
16%

Protoss (33)
 
10%

Random (13)
 
4%

342 total votes

Your vote: I play R and I think following race expresses its complaints the most:

(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Random




edit 3: added my conclusion post:

Ok, the votes are in time to wrap it up.
First of all: thanks everybody for voting and more importantly posting in an overall positive and constructive manner (a feared much, much worse)
Second of all: though it seems the results are very clear and definitive, they should be treated with caution, be carefully interpreted and not be taken as absolute fact.
Furthermore only the first two polls are (and should be) discussed, because of the possibility of multiple votes on the last four polls.


Poll: Which players have expressed their complaints about balance the most?

Zerg Players (1490)
 
73%

Terran Players (360)
 
18%

Protoss Players (169)
 
8%

Random Players (20)
 
1%

2039 total votes

Your vote: Which players have expressed their complaints about balance the most?

(Vote): Zerg Players
(Vote): Protoss Players
(Vote): Terran Players
(Vote): Random Players


Poll: I am a...

Terran Player (600)
 
33%

Protoss Player (564)
 
31%

Zerg Player (466)
 
25%

Random Player (206)
 
11%

1836 total votes

Your vote: I am a...

(Vote): Terran Player
(Vote): Zerg Player
(Vote): Protoss Player
(Vote): Random Player




What do the polls show?
Poll 1:
A very clear picture. 74% of all people who voted have the impression that Zerg players did express their dissatisfaction the most about questions of balance until now. The second outstanding thing is, that only 8% had the feeling that Protoss did complain the most.

Poll 2:
This served mainly as control tool to make sure that every race is represented equally in Poll 1 (random is not regarded as race obviously), which was not the case. Zerg players are underrepresented and there is a slight deviation in total votes between Poll 1 and Poll2. What does that mean for Poll 1: not much. If we add the “missing” zerg players as well as the difference in votes between Poll 1 and Poll 2 under the very generous assumption that these “missing cases” would not pick Zerg as the race which complains the most but terran, the percentage would change from 74% to 63% for Zerg and from 17% to 29% for Terran. This would still indicate the same trend as it does now.

What do these results indicate?
This is really the interesting question, and the most important thing to note here is: they indicate nothing about the actual present and past state of balance of the game but - in combination with the posts in this thread - allow some interesting theories to why Zerg seem to complain so much and Protoss seem to complain so little.
All that follows now is written under the assumption that all SC 2 players regardless if the play Z, T, P, or R a basically the same, and have the same prerequisites (for rage, frustration, patience, talent etc.).

Why do then Zerg complain so much and Protoss so little?

The frustration Factor:
There are some great posts in this thread from Zerg players describing their frustration when they lose a match. It’s not losing that is so frustrating (everyone has to deal with that) it is the way of losing that is regarded as the most frustrating thing and even more interesting: the general “reactionary” way of playing Zerg is pointed out to be frustrating. The feeling that Protoss and Terran are able to dictate the way a Zerg has to play the match and basically even only being able to win on “their conditions” sounds not very fun.
Hypothesis #1:
Playing Zerg is more frustrating than playing Protoss or Terran because wins are not as rewarding, losses are more discouraging due to the feeling of not being in control of the match.
In reverse that would of course mean that Protoss wins are the most satisfying or their losses the least frustrating. I don’t know… (There’s a reason why it’s called ‘theory’)

The ‘Idra Factor’:
Sounds weird, but is has been brought up. Idra has been around since the dawn of SC 2 and it’s a fair assumption that the majority of the people who voted not only have heard of him but also know that he is famous for voicing his complaints in a very, let’s say ‘direct’ way.
Is it possible that one guy alone is able to affect the perception of all Zerg players? Maybe, but what seems more likely is that his way of discussing certain issues caught on in his massive fanbase.
Hypothesis #2:
Zerg Players only seem to be complaining the most because of a very vocal group who have a visible and well known idol.

The Terran Factor:
Let’s face it: especially in the beginning of SC2 there has been a very long period of Terran domination on the professional level of play. GSL trophies were passed on from one Terran player to another after an exciting TvT final. (at least it felt that way). It would have been very bold to complain constantly about balance as Terran player in those days, and I think somehow this era still echoes into the present.
Hypothesis #3:
Zerg players only seem to be complaining the most because in comparison for a long time Terran players couldn’t voice their complaints openly without looking very ‘unreasonable’. Of course this still leaves open the protoss paradox, which I currently have no hypotheses on

That’s it from me, bear in mind that this are only wild hypotheses based loosely on a far from perfect poll and responses in this thread.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
peidongyang
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada2084 Posts
July 09 2013 00:04 GMT
#2
At points in 2010 and 2011, zerg was actually weak due to mostly the maps and to a lesser but also important extent balance in certain units. There was obviously a period of mass terran QQ over tvz after queen/overlord buff, and an even better period of mass protoss QQ due to 1/1/1. Unfortunately for terrans, they never really got the patch they were looking for, and that's the reason I would say Terran.

People do tend to ignore the fact that there are only 3 GSL protoss champions, and the fact that the race pretty much got run over by terran in 2011 and zerg in 2012.

I think the balance is pretty good now, the complaining right now isnt even QQ. I think the community has grown much more mature and constructive (might have to do with the fact that I dont go on reddit/sc2 anymore)
the throws never bothered me anyway
FT.aCt)Sony
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1049 Posts
July 09 2013 00:09 GMT
#3
This same aspect happened all throughout Brood War, just go look it up pending the WCG's from 2000 up until 2010 and you'll see a huge trend.

Aside from this, if you go and look at alot of the old analysis's of PGT/WGT/ICCup (which I can give you a link to go and look all of those old databases up which is spoilered below ^_^ ) you will see that same information based on that era of play.

+ Show Spoiler +
http://sc-player.marw.net/
32
Profile Joined February 2010
United States163 Posts
July 09 2013 00:14 GMT
#4
Those polls are really bad. You should probably do a different poll for each race.
Master of DalK
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Canada1803 Posts
July 09 2013 00:19 GMT
#5
Zerg tends to be the most vocal, even just out of the oG chat too ;p

We Protoss remain quiet, and only speak within ourselves it seems. Just need sOs or PartinG to win OSL/GSL and then we'll be happy for a while, we've become rather restless T________T
@MasterDalK | Maelstrom Entertainment | Streaming Every Esport Under the Sun
dr.fahrenheit
Profile Joined January 2013
Austria101 Posts
July 09 2013 00:21 GMT
#6
On July 09 2013 09:14 32 wrote:
Those polls are really bad. You should probably do a different poll for each race.


You mean like: "I play Zerg and I think a)protoss b)terran c)zerg d)random" etc?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
dr.fahrenheit
Profile Joined January 2013
Austria101 Posts
July 09 2013 00:38 GMT
#7
updated for additional polls
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
Verator
Profile Joined June 2010
United States283 Posts
July 09 2013 00:41 GMT
#8
On July 09 2013 09:04 peidongyang wrote:
At points in 2010 and 2011, zerg was actually weak due to mostly the maps and to a lesser but also important extent balance in certain units. There was obviously a period of mass terran QQ over tvz after queen/overlord buff, and an even better period of mass protoss QQ due to 1/1/1. Unfortunately for terrans, they never really got the patch they were looking for, and that's the reason I would say Terran.

People do tend to ignore the fact that there are only 3 GSL protoss champions, and the fact that the race pretty much got run over by terran in 2011 and zerg in 2012.

I think the balance is pretty good now, the complaining right now isnt even QQ. I think the community has grown much more mature and constructive (might have to do with the fact that I dont go on reddit/sc2 anymore)


The first two points are extremely important and true.

I think the last one is blatantly false. Any venture into reddit, clearly shows that there is just as much of a lack of constructive balance discussion as at any other point. If anything, I would actually argue that things are worse now, because fanboy cultures have had time to develop around certain players. If those players do badly, then the casual community goes insane. There are certainly more people who are more reasonable, but the number of casual viewers is also much larger now than early in the game's life too.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. -- Bertrand Russell
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-09 00:49:37
July 09 2013 00:49 GMT
#9
This does not work since there were completely different stages of the game.
Look at the start of WoL where we had reaper nonsense, tanks doing double damage and roach was a 3ranged unit.
Master of DalK
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Canada1803 Posts
July 09 2013 00:52 GMT
#10
So even Zergs think Zergs seem to express opinions the most lol
@MasterDalK | Maelstrom Entertainment | Streaming Every Esport Under the Sun
Usernameffs
Profile Joined February 2013
Sweden107 Posts
July 09 2013 00:53 GMT
#11
Dumbest thread ever made, there a thread where you can talk balance why make other threads about balance.
Nothingtosay
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States875 Posts
July 09 2013 00:58 GMT
#12
This thread need to be preserved for posterity. If you believe that people are responding honestly then even zergs know that they whine the most!
[QUOTE][B]On October 16 2011 13:00 Anihc wrote:[/B] No, you're the one who's wrong. Nothingtosay got it right.[/QUOTE]:3
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
July 09 2013 00:58 GMT
#13
protoss being lowest in almost all of them means protoss is imba btw :-)
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
dr.fahrenheit
Profile Joined January 2013
Austria101 Posts
July 09 2013 01:02 GMT
#14
On July 09 2013 09:53 Usernameffs wrote:
Dumbest thread ever made, there a thread where you can talk balance why make other threads about balance.



Learn to read

On July 09 2013 08:55 dr.fahrenheit wrote:
...
[*]... (irrelevant if the complaints had good reasons or not, this -despite the title- is not about balance it's about perceived presence)...



The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
July 09 2013 01:03 GMT
#15
On July 09 2013 09:52 Master of DalK wrote:
So even Zergs think Zergs seem to express opinions the most lol


Or people are just trolling the stereotype that Z complains a lot, so are voting Z no matter what they actually think heh
faderedguy
Profile Joined June 2013
Indonesia58 Posts
July 09 2013 01:04 GMT
#16
I play zerg and for me it's mostly zerg and protoss players.
A lot of toss seems to whine about SH and mutas.
SH is only op late game in my views.
work hard to achieve victory, don't whine your way into it
dUTtrOACh
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2339 Posts
July 09 2013 01:04 GMT
#17
I have to admit, for a m/u I struggle in (TvZ), whenever I win against Zerg I expect either no GG or a rant about how my race is OP; most of the time, they don't disappoint.
twitch.tv/duttroach
iMrising
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States1099 Posts
July 09 2013 01:09 GMT
#18
I play protoss and even before the gl hf people tend to rant about how OP protoss is. So then I purposely 2 base all-in them and then they rage even more. smh
I haven't heard much from terran players either, or protoss
$O$ | soO
dr.fahrenheit
Profile Joined January 2013
Austria101 Posts
July 09 2013 01:10 GMT
#19
On July 09 2013 09:58 Nothingtosay wrote:
This thread need to be preserved for posterity. If you believe that people are responding honestly then even zergs know that they whine the most!


"Whining" is the the wrong word for this. There might be valid reasons (or not), if players of a certain race seem to be the most unsatisfied, but that is a discussion I really wanted to avoid, because it leads to the dark side (which is also known as reddit.com)
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
July 09 2013 01:12 GMT
#20
I'm just not a fan of Zerg anyway. I'll just vote against Zerg in whatever poll I'm presented with ;D
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