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Active: 7820 users

Base Timings and Saturation Speed from 100k Games

Forum Index > SC2 General
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dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 30 2013 20:23 GMT
#1
Hi, here are some stats about 2nd and 3rd base timing, and the speed of mineral-income saturation for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd bases: check it out.

It's interactive, so you gotta click over to play with it, but anyway here's what it looks like:

[image loading]


The stats are drawn from ~100,000 1v1 Ladder HotS games played since May 8th.

All the info is divided out by matchup and league.

The base timings are for completed bases in mining position -- so macro bases aren't counted.

The saturation speeds measure the time lag from when your 2nd/3rd mining base is complete to when you have 2x/3x saturated mining income, that is the income earned by 16 workers on minerals. The idea being that once you have invested the resources into having a base up, you might as well be getting full income value from it.

As a lowly Gold Protoss, I built this so I could know what people are doing on average in my league and the leagues above me. Of course the timing in any game will vary based on your strategy and tactical considerations.

If you are varying from these averages and you have a good reason, then great. But if you are significantly slower or faster than these and you find that surprising, then maybe you can profitably adjust your playstyle.

In any individual game you can see that game's timings by clicking on the new Economy button:

[image loading]
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
May 30 2013 20:26 GMT
#2
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
May 30 2013 20:28 GMT
#3
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?

On May 31 2013 05:23 dsjoerg wrote:
All the info is divided out by matchup and league.
arkedos
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany1426 Posts
May 30 2013 20:30 GMT
#4
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?



you have to visit the site. the picture in the OP ist just an example.
love esports - hate homophobia
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
May 30 2013 20:30 GMT
#5
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?

You really should click on links...


I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Chewbacca.
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3634 Posts
May 30 2013 20:31 GMT
#6
Cool to look at, even if it does just show you what you are expecting --in most cases higher league players get expos faster/saturated faster, even though there are a few exceptions
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 20:34:17
May 30 2013 20:33 GMT
#7
That is some super sexy statistics.

Of course, it confirms a lot of things, things that we pretty much expected. Bronze players saturate slower than master players, and there is a quicker expansion in ZvT than in PvP.

But, the personalized tool looks damn cool. That's a really cool job!

Edit : By the way, sometimes, the values for GM are a bit strange. You have to note that the sample size is often really really small (like 15 games of GM level as opposed to 5000 games of master level)
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 30 2013 20:36 GMT
#8
Yeah I was tempted to remove the GM column entirely due to low # of samples, but the page is going to automatically update every day, so if people start uploading GM games, then we'll start to see more meaningful stats there too.
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
May 30 2013 20:39 GMT
#9
I'm starting to really really love this site.
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
Cereb
Profile Joined November 2011
Denmark3388 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 20:48:37
May 30 2013 20:45 GMT
#10
On May 31 2013 05:36 dsjoerg wrote:
Yeah I was tempted to remove the GM column entirely due to low # of samples, but the page is going to automatically update every day, so if people start uploading GM games, then we'll start to see more meaningful stats there too.


How low is this ? If you have 100 000 of games in total, it can't be that bad ? =)



Assuming the GM column is correct, I find these stats highly interesting! Looking from a zerg perspective, the third basically gets saturated faster and faster from bronze to masters! However in GM ZvZ or ZvT, it actually gets saturated abit slower than masters league which I find really interesting! Being in masters, this could tell me that heavy aggression might be preferable in ZvZ before fully saturating the third for a long time (which corresponds my own experience) and for ZvT I feel like many Zergs are guilty of just rushing up to a full three base economy regardless of what build the Terran is going because they are quite used to play against the heavy macro style from Terran and this might entail some losses.

Regardless thanks for sharing this !


Edit: Err... The numbers were posted and they are actually listed on the site...My bad. Yeah, wish more GM players would get their act together and start using this. Still, I prefer having it there as it might hint towards certain things..
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
Ph1losophy
Profile Joined February 2013
4 Posts
May 30 2013 20:50 GMT
#11
While the sample size may screw up a few things, I think it's really interesting to see what a huge gap exists between the average master league player and grandmasters.
n0ah
Profile Joined June 2011
United States250 Posts
May 30 2013 20:56 GMT
#12
This is pretty awesome. Good job!
If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together
SpikeStarcraft
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany2095 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-30 21:04:04
May 30 2013 20:59 GMT
#13
well the matchups for gm league have between 9 and 33 matches each. Thats a very low number.. for 22 days...

i dunno why the numbers are so low..

but i really like those stats and its a good clean analysis. I really like that youve chosen meaningful indicators and that you didnt make any weird interpretations but let the numbers speak for themselves instead.

I just realized you are the same guy that did that stuff with the inject percentage. While i didnt approve on that topic back then, i really like how you've improved your analytical methods.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 30 2013 20:59 GMT
#14
This tells us sooo much more than efficient with injects does nicely done.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Northern_iight
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada363 Posts
May 30 2013 21:10 GMT
#15
hmm. i thought the gap would be much higher. especially for 3rds
Oboeman
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3980 Posts
May 30 2013 21:37 GMT
#16
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.
Innovation
Profile Joined February 2010
United States284 Posts
May 30 2013 21:41 GMT
#17
I think its interesting and valuable when looking at the difference in full saturation timing between 1 - 2 - 3 base by race. While mostly its already intrinsically known it helps to understand potential timings strength and weakness by match-up. For instance, Zerg has the fastest one base saturation but the slowest 2nd base saturation. Terran has slow 1st base saturation but the fastest 2nd and 3rd base saturation due to the mule factor etc... Toss seems to be somewhere in the middle. Pros are already great at pinpointing those timings by match-up, build, map etc... but this kind of information makes it easier for us non pro's to understand some of the secret sauce to their success.
About ChoyafOu "if he wants games decided by random chance he could just play the way he always does" Idra
DenTenker
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States606 Posts
May 30 2013 21:54 GMT
#18
This is awesome. This is one easy way to see where a player is performing compared to everybody else. While this may not be the determining factor in deciding if a player is playing at the next league's level, it gives an easy benchmark for people to shoot for. Well done!
If your all in didn't work, you didn't pull the workers.
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
May 30 2013 21:58 GMT
#19
PvP doesn't really change much from bronze to GM. No wonder I feel stupid playing that MU
SC2 Mapmaker
jermmanDOTA
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada45 Posts
May 30 2013 22:17 GMT
#20
JUST FOR ANYONE WHO DIDNT FIGURE IT OUT: The first race you select on the left is the data displayed.
I exercise occult and subtle power, Carrying water, shouldering firewood.
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