EPTI actually prefer the original post limit over the new no-night-talking idea. I think that a strict post limit would be something really interesting to try out. This game doesn't need to be everyone's cup of tea, it's an experiment.
[N] Sicilian Mafia Style
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I actually prefer the original post limit over the new no-night-talking idea. I think that a strict post limit would be something really interesting to try out. This game doesn't need to be everyone's cup of tea, it's an experiment. | ||
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this is gonna be fine | ||
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Regarding the pm policy discussion, I'm torn on several fronts. I like the idea of being open about who we are mason ing and masoned to, as suggested by drh or someone earlier, since it allows connection analysis and also since we can put pressure on people who were masoned to dead townies or scum later in the game. However, if people mason strong townreads as gas been suggested, and then are open about it, we have all the disadvantages of revealing our townreads in any other game - telling scum who to kill. ATM I think the advantages of openness outweigh, so I would caution people against mason ing super strong town reads. Instead I think we should use our masons on either Avon reads or null reads to try to better understand people; if they become town reads because of the Pam's then you can discuss the game in secret, and it they become scum reads then awesome lynch them. In that vein I'm strongly considering mason ing oatsmaster. His first posts seem quite scummy to me. The pressure on hapa to produce scum reads like seven posts into the game seems manufactured. However, I'm aware that I have a history in two or three or more games of going after oatsmaster when we are actually both town; I'm not always wrong about him I think, and each game it's a different behavior of his that I find scummy, and every time I feel like it's for a good reason, but sometimes I'm wrong. The only pause I have is that oatsmaster seems like he's already been masoned by several people, and if one town person becomes a huge mason nexus then they're an easy target for scum to disrupt our communication. So I'll think about that. One other thing - these newbies are being pretty weirdly aggressive, not sure why. Kolly is apparently voting drh because of a policy disagreement, not sure how serious this is. If he sticks to this read I'd say it seems manufactured, but it's possible he thinks he's doing a "pressure vote". I want to see how this develops, if he backs off then how he justifies it will be very important. As for malongo, he has like three posts so well have to see where that goes, but ATM there's little reasoning for his vote, which makes me suspicious as well; plus the fact that he's throwing his limited posts around with little content. I also think the scum reads on sloosh are wrong, or at least premature. I actually agree with him that a dead thread is bad for town and something worth avoiding. It can make it easier for scum to hide from the majority of the thread. Fooling one or two people is much easier than fooling a whole group IMO. I disagree with sloosh's conclusion that we should avoid using our pms though; I think we just need to understand that as townies it's important for us to see the thread as the main part of the game and use pms to help that, and to pressure people who don't. I don't like that his post is only about setup rather than reads, but hopefully in his next 19 posts he will fix that up. I also want to call out VA and ask for some discussion of reads rather than setup. That's the best way IMO to tell apart whether he's actually scum hiding from pms as some believe or if he's a stubborn townie with a cause. Also question for discussion: should we save some pm choices for later in the game? When we have more developed reads and pushing people for information and discussing the game outside the thread will probably be more useful? (1/20) | ||
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2. on looking back oats has already been masoned by both drh and ryan. I'm deciding not to mason him (yet at least) because (a) they will figure him out, and (b) it's in towns best interest to have the pm network be less centralized. 3. therefore, I am masoning sloosh. Other comment: I really don't like what this post says about VE: On July 17 2013 03:14 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm still anxiously, anxiously waiting for Sandroba, Node and Wiggles to come in with their thoughts. Their silence is NOT being ignored. (3/20) seriously, why use one of your precious precious posts on pointing out something that we all already know? Especially after Hi guys! I'm going to be keeping a running tally of my posts to try and remind myself that I can't spam in this game as I'm wont to do. but it's not just that ve made a spammy useless post and went against his own advice not to do that, that's very ve-ish. it's also that a large amount of things went down in the thread which I would expect VE to comment on if he was town, which he doesn't. If the spammy post came at a spammy point in the game it wouldn't be a big deal. But we've had the whole sloosh-ryan policy fight, the newbies voting drh and mz for no reason, a bunch of people's opening posts coming in to the thread - stuff i would expect VE to think about and have something to say about when he checks in to the thread. There's also the fact that VE wants to kill drh and I don't really understand why. What is so scummy about his posts? I agree that it's suspicious or suboptimal that he's using up his post count so fast, but what about their actual content does VE think is bad? I don't know. | ||
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1. anyone who has played long enough to know who sandro et al are will have noticed their absence, and anyone who doesn't know who they are won't care. And identifying lurkers less than 24 hours into day 1 is never what I call useful. 2. your suspicion on wiggles seems forced. he talked about a total of two players in his post - focused scumreads. he's wrong ovc but the point remains, he's only made one post, and the fact that it avoids talking about two new people, one of whom is super lurky at this point, doesn't seem to me like a reason to put wiggles on your death list. I too have not talked about malongo or khipples, neither have a lot of other people who have made more than one post. 3. i'm always suspicious of someone who says "jk lol" when they get called out for a bad or unjustifiable stance. fffiiiiiiinnnngggeerrrr of sussspiiiiiicciiiiioooonnn! @wiggles: Did you read my second post? It does not seem like it. Anyway I think you might be getting too caught up in my language. Do you disagree with my reasons for finding oatsmaster, sloosh, or VE scummy? Or just with the way that I phrased it and the fact that I decided not to pm oats right away? Cause the latter doesn't make much sense as a reason to suspect me. | ||
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On July 17 2013 07:36 VisceraEyes wrote: I expect more of Wiggles than you (and most in this game.) No offense brah. I never know what to say to people thinking my suspicions are "forced". In what way? Like "Hmmm how can I say I'm suspicious of Wiggles Hmmmmmm...maybe this and this? Ugh I don't know but I just have to say I'm suspicious of Wiggles for X reason"? Because if that's the case, what do you think I have to gain by saying I'm suspicious of Wiggles if I'm scum? Or do you think I just needed to round out my list to include 3 players or something? What exactly are you accusing me of SnB? (6/20) im saying that it looks like you chose wiggles as someone to be suspicious of and then added reasons later, because i dont think given his single post and the reasons you mention it would genuinely make you think he is scum. im saying u scum brah. @DrH if you get a chance can you tell me why im on your scum list? also i want to renew my poke on VA. I'm very much unsatisfied with the extent to which he's talked about setup and policy and not the more important things like reads and interactions. So VA A CHALLENGE can you write a case for why VE is either town or scum? Or replace VE with someone else if you want to but I want you to put some more reasoning into the thread. | ||
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On July 17 2013 13:03 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I don't think Dr. H would be a good Day 1 lynch. I'm leaning more towards town on him, and he's being quite active in the thread, and PM land as well it seems, which will be hard to keep up as scum without becoming fluffy. He's put something of a spotlight on himself, and with my read, I don't think he's a good target for the lynch today. Dr. H, would you mind explaining your read on Oatsmaster a little more clearly for me, please? Is it basically just that Oats is quick to agree with you about who scum are in PM, but doesn't follow through with it in thread? So, there's a discrepancy between what's happening in thread and PM land? Based on the PMs you shared talking about Tofu, Oats seems somewhat undecided about what he thinks of Tofu, not entirely convinced that he's scum, as you say. In thread though, he was more adamant about Tofu than he was in PMs, which looks to be the opposite of what you're saying. What was the time period of those PMs? Do you have any PMs where Oats talks about VE? I'm not sure if I agree that there's something wrong with what he was saying about Yamato, it's not that he disagrees with Yamato's conclusions (You being town and VE being scum), but more that he disagrees with his behaviour regarding those conclusions. I do agree that he seems like he's acting very tentative in his PMs with you though. Why is that? My read on you was based mostly off of your first post, and not as much your second. I don't disagree with what you're saying about people, so much as how you went about your accusations. For example, I didn't think you were scummy because you thought Oat's first post was scummy, it was because you thought he was scummy, but spent a paragraph going back and forth saying that you thought he was scummy, but might be wrong. If you think he's scummy, you should be straightforward and say so, because making excuses just makes it look like you're looking for a way out if he flips town after. It also looked bad, because you didn't take a strong decision to actually pursue him. You wrote a paragraph about how we should use PMs to scumhunt, but then don't actually take the opportunity to do so. Talking about what you might do doesn't accomplish anything for town, it just makes it look like you're contributing when you're not. That's the other part of where my suspicion came from. Posting from phone so will be brief but since vivax has only posted his weird rp thing about me and I think VE is scum you are the best person for me to engage with. I have a history specifically of always thinking oats is scummy, that makes me doubt my own reads on him, I feel like that's a good reason to equivocate but if I'm gonna draw shit for being honest maybe I'll just keep it to myself in the future. And I still think I made the right decision to not pm oats given he was in pm contact with some of the most active and best townies already in drh and Ryan. Can you look at my filter for my accusations/suspicions towards other people than oats and tell me what you think, do they support the me-being-scum narrative. In other news finding out that malongo is not a newbie makes me way more suspicious of his lack of content. Just throwing that out there. | ||
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strongandbig
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Btw an update: after looking through his filter again, he's no longer one of my top scum reads ATM, he's still silly aggressive but he's engaging and updating his reads enough and nothing in his filter super-pings my radar after those first few posts. (10/20) (actual post 7 plus 3 to drh) | ||
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VE Possibly VA Possibly malongo now that I know he's not a nub Also in case it didnt count before when I pm'd rol: ##give 3 posts to DrHelvetica (for a total of 3 not a total of 6 if the first set did count) (11/20) | ||
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On July 18 2013 02:30 Vivax wrote: I've been masoned by someone who I talked about previously, didn't mason anyone on my own yet. The guy I masoned claimed that he did something somewhat scummy on purpose to draw reactions. I'll tell you who I'm masoned with and eventually more about our exchange once I've talked a little more to him and see if he gives his consensus. I stick to my opinion that S & B is scum, and I think that his first post is all you need to catch him. From a PM with the other guy: I kinda had half a feeling to post a list too but I feel like I should stick to what's relevant: Talking about scum. S & B has clearly put in more effort since, and I don't see anything scummy in his posts since the first (but I'll surely reread them to make sure). If he's scum he's currently putting in effort in a way that doesn't suggest he could be. That doesn't automatically undo the previous reasons, too often have I fallen for the mistake of lessening the importance of earlier actions as the game progresses (which I think is a general fallacy everyone is subject to). Other guy who looks bad is SlOosh for his defensive reactions and lack of followup. I'll be up for lynching him and encourage him to post more ASAP. To put it simply: I don't see any intention of finding scum in his posts yet, but he reacts quite happily to accusations. I be readin' more now. Any questions to me should be directed to constable Guido first. okay i get that you didnt like my first post. it wasn't a great post, although i think there were good reasons for everything i said in there. specifically, if anyone has been following my other ongoing game they should see that i've been taking a lot of flak for inactivity, i thought i would try and head that off but it clearly hasn't worked (also this game is much easier to be active in because of the post limit). But i've tried to discuss these points with wiggles and explain where i was coming from, do you have any comment on that? is there even a point in trying to engage with you given that you're continuing to critique my first post and ignoring everything else i've done since then, but i'm still apparently your main top scum read? also @ace and layabout the thing about malongo is that he's posted multiple times at very different times, showing that he's been following and reading the thread, but he's never actually engaged the game or who is mafia or who he thinks we should kill or any of that meaty stuff. that said, what do you two think of VE? (12/20) | ||
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strongandbig
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At my gf's house posting on phone Voting VE cause he scum I'll try to check back in one more time before the lynch but I might not be able to | ||
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First, I saw some people being like "why in the world would anyone vote VE after his claim?" Basically, I only had a few minutes (my gf was like, "are you playing another mafia game? I need you to help with this stuff") and I decided to vote for the person who I thought had been scummiest all day. I voted right after this post from layabout: On July 18 2013 09:44 layabout wrote: For a 24 player game we have a vote's spread pretty thinly: here are the leaders as far as i can tell and we should not be lynching slOosh. votes sloosh: 5 raynpelikoneet VayneAuthority HiroPro kushm4sta VisceraEyes VE: 3 FirmTofu yamato77 slOosh snb:2 Vivax gumshoe I felt more confident in VE being scum than sloosh based on their posting, and I wanted more time to try and figure out sloosh in pms by getting him to talk about reads. So I voted VE. Now, looking through what happened after i left the thread. First, there's the drH-firmtofu "steaming pile". Makes me think drH is town, I don't think it likely that a scum could fake that kind of emotional drive. On the other hand, i don't see anything between them to make me think firmtofu is town. In fact, given I exaggerated this statement and said DrH had a strong town read on slOosh so as to elicit a response. DrH responded in kind so I pursued him further. from tofu, the whole thing begins to seem like tofu baiting drh into raging. per drh, this has apparently been a strategy of scumteams before - apparently newb scum were "assigned" to bait him? So here's a question - Tofu, why did you keep having this same argument with drH? Was it really a good use of your time? Something I really don't like is that people apparently policy voted VE because of his claim. I mean, I don't think his claim was a good reason to not lynch him. Claiming is just something that VE does, it's not a reason that he's scum. So that means Ace and Layabout. Layabout at least had other reasons for suspecting VE, and it wasn't a pure policy vote. (he attacked VE's push on sloosh and his reasons for voting malongo). So okay. Although it is weird that someone who's played as many games as Layabout doesn't know how America works. but whatever. Ace is a different story, though, his vote was a pure policy vote: On July 18 2013 23:51 Ace wrote: I voted for VE because I felt like it. Was going to unvote and thats why I asked if he really claimed. When I see that 2 people are silly enough to claim Day 1 I just resign the guy to his fate. We've been through this and he should know that move is bad for Town and we know he is capable of fake claiming. Add in rayne's claim and Scum know who is not the cop or doctor, and either can get lynched for lying in the future if Town. Bad plays but hey I'm not even reading the thread anyway. My problem isn't just that he hasn't posted any of his own reads, that could be explained by replacing in (although this thread is pretty short due to the post limit, so it should be easier to replace into). It's that Ace was drifting through pushing a policy lynch, without even engaging the alignment of the guy he was voting for, and now is focusing on that policy question again after the flip. This is Ace refusing to engage the town and pushing his usual scum agenda. On April 29 2012 14:09 strongandbig wrote: This is from Ace's Mafia Manifesto: Read that and think to yourself, does this or does it not sound like how Ace is playing right now? So unless Ace starts substantially engaging and stops focusing on policies and simple dichotomies (see nuclear winter, where he just flipped scum, for another example of him doing the same thing), I'm calling him scum. And ask yourself, why would anyone who wants town to win say this: On July 19 2013 00:44 Ace wrote: and Scum I'm not the traitor. I'm just playing this game for myself. I've got my own win condition that I've made up for myself. (1/10) | ||
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On July 19 2013 04:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Exactly. All he did in NWM practically was post reads, he spent so little time doing anything else and his cases were all constructive and confident! FirmTofu slipped up. When I posted my first "logical" case on him he says the following (paraphrasing): DrH makes some good points against me, people should look into them and form their own opinions. Does this sound like a townie to you? How many players in here have been falsely accused before and thought "Yeah, he makes a good point. People should listen to him!" Nobody. The same arguments I made in that post - that FirmTofu referred to as valid - are the same points I kept referring to ad nauseum, which he later calls irrational, emotional, nonsense. In fact - no one else in the thread is even buying them as valid! So in fact - FirmTofu is the sole person who agreed with my case against FirmTofu in the first place! Yet, as time goes on, he continues to insist my arguments hold no merit, that I am a liar, etc! If I am a liar - how am I town? If you look at all of his big posts in this thread - they lead to nothing and the motivations behind them are unclear or disjointed. This is not the same town FT I read in NWM. Couple that with his first post at the beginning of the game and his motivation is clear - to be nonconfrontational and look as townie as possible. Rather than destroying my points (which have no way of being valid or correct if he is a townie - not to mention he says they are valid one minute and then continues to argue against them, which is ridiculously suspicious) he disengages and wastes his posts casting doubt on me. What is the point of casting doubt on me if you don't even believe I'm mafia? It's so easy to sit back and say "You guys are dumb for lynching VE!!!!!" knowing as scum he's going to lynch town, but you didn't make an effort to push the lynch around to someone else. I screamed my face off trying to get somebody to vote for this guy with me and all FT does is sit back and let it happen, reap in the town cred. It's ridiculous! all the "he said she said" about the sloosh read was getting lost in the noise, but if you boil the case down to "his play is different from his town game", "he's contradicting himself for no reason", and "he didn't try to swing the lynch off of a person he thought was town" it gets a lot more convincing to me. | ||
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On July 19 2013 06:28 Korynne wrote: Yay. *hugs* I'll comply with your SnB question then gumshoe. Uhm, I read SnB's post regarding his vote on VE. It didn't make a lot of sense to me... I would've accepted I was "busy" with my girlfriend and didn't check the thread before lynch. But instead he sticks to saying he wants to lynch VE, and claiming didn't change that. I mean, wat? -> "I mean, I don't think his claim was a good reason to not lynch him. Claiming is just something that VE does, it's not a reason that he's scum. " @SnB - So uh, did you want to lynch VE or not after knowing he claimed? xD gum I would say SnB looks scummy if he's had a record of playing some games (I don't like passing judgement on weird behavior if it's new players or chez). I didn't really get any content out of his posts, like pointing out Ace policy lynching. Felt like he got suspected, backed off, got some people back on his side, and then went back to his old ways. I wanted to lynch VE and his claim didn't change my mind. His role claim in no way added new information about his alignment. How is that hard to understand? | ||
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On July 19 2013 14:05 Ace wrote: good enough guess. Lets do it. Do you guys really think ace is telling the truth? I mean I'm willing to vote tofu because drh's case is pretty persuasive once you get past the massive shitfest over who said what about sloosh, but do you guys really think this is a legit claim from ace? (1/20) | ||
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##vote: firmtofu | ||
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On July 19 2013 23:10 Vivax wrote: Which case do you like most? What arguments do you find particularly persuasive? Asking this cause I'm interested in knowing how your read evolved and based on what arguments. @ Rayn Didn't notice the cop claim when I wrote that post. I'm however very distrusting of ace. I prefer to wait for Tofu first and then work through his posts again before giving a judgment. Specifically, two arguments drh made that I at first ignored cause I didn't really focus on the specifics of the arguments he was making, I had been just filing their whole interaction away as rage and stubbornness. - drh's meta comparison of this game to nuclear winter, where tofu flipped town; especially the comparison of the first big post tofu makes in each game - tofu starts off saying drh "made good points" about him then calls the same points lies when drh doesn't back off I thought there was a third good point - Drh also attacked tofu for not doing enough to keep a townie (VE) from being lynched but i just went back and read that part of tofu's filter and he didnt actually have a townread on ve plus he did tell people to get off him, so this point isn't actually as good as I thought it was. But I feel like those first two arguments are independent of the actual substance of the "you-said-this-no-I-didn't" that caused me to disregard their interaction day1. | ||
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On July 19 2013 23:36 Vivax wrote: S & B, what do you think about Oats? Can your reasoning against Tofu hence be reduced to this? Did you find anything you find scummy that no one else noticed yet? Can you find me an example for the second point? What do you think is the difference in first post that makes him specifically scum? tofu questions: 1. no. i saw a decent case that matched a claimed cop check. although i was the one to doubt the cop check, the fact that the case was decent and agreed with it was enough for me to vote. 2. not sure what you mean by an example since drh has already laid it out, but tofu using language like " The points against me are completely valid and you should all definitely look at them." and then calling drh "inflammatory" and "emotional" sounds like a transition from appeasement to discrediting when appeasement didn't work. but yeah if you're trying to get me to admit that i didn't write the tofu case then fine. or do you not agree with drh's characterization of tofu? cause that would be good to know about, you could share it with the thread. 3. On July 17 2013 09:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418049&user=FirmTofu ^ Filter from Nuclear Winter where FirmTofu is town. Let me demonstrate marked differences. In Nuclear Winter FirmTofu is immediately concerned with reads on players and is working on something constructive. His megapost is also completely concerned with reads: He breaks down his arguments unemotionally and the argument is composed almost entirely of quotes/support. Let's contrast this with his play in this game: MegaPost - all fluff - no substance. The attitude is different, he's very flowery and fluffy whereas in Nuclear Winter he more or less gets to the point in every post. yes i did read the case before i voted for it. oats question - this is a little less of a waste of time. the main new development since i posted On July 17 2013 23:38 strongandbig wrote: after looking through his filter again, he's no longer one of my top scum reads ATM, he's still silly aggressive but he's engaging and updating his reads enough and nothing in his filter super-pings my radar after those first few posts. was ryan's chatlog push, which is dumb. based on gumshoe's post after he died, the logical assumption is that gumshoe targeted someone to protect last night, and based on the fact that well-known good scumhunters like marv, ryan, wiggles etc are in the game the logical conclusion is that gumshoe died protecting his target. the only new things in oats's filter since D1 are his message chain with VE (short, null) and a bunch of one-liners (also null). i would like to see a real comment on the ace/ft/drh situation (especially the fakeclaim) but i see no reason to update my read. also ##unvote: firmtofu until we resolve this ace fakeclaim situation. (4/20) | ||
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