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17 civilians beheaded... for dancing?

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Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-28 00:12:46
August 28 2012 00:11 GMT
#1
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/08/26/2269926/taliban-kills-17-afghan-villagers.html
+ Show Spoiler +
Taliban insurgents killed 17 Afghan civilians Sunday and beheaded as many as 15 of them in the southern province of Helmand, officials said Monday. But the circumstance of their deaths was sharply disputed.

One version said they’d been killed because they’d attended a party where women danced with men. But others scoffed at the idea, saying women would not have been dancing in such a conservative area of Afghanistan.

“It is not possible to sing a song in a Taliban-controlled area – let alone have dancing, and especially women dancing,” said Daoud Ahmadi, a spokesman for Helmand’s governor.

Even the location of the killings was uncertain. Afghanistan’s Interior Ministry said in a statement that armed Taliban had “opened fire and beheaded” the civilians – including two women – in Helmand’s Kajaki district, a version with which Ahmadi agreed.

But Haji Abdul Wahab, a tribal elder from the neighboring Musa Qala district, told McClatchy that the killings had occurred in his district, not Kajaki, though he, too, dismissed the idea that the victims were at a late-night celebration with music and dancing.

“It is not possible to have a dancing party in conservative Helmand province,” Wahab said. “Helmand is a Pashtun province, and it’s taboo to have women dancing here.” Pashtuns are the dominant ethnic group in the region.

Still, the killings prompted widespread condemnation among local and foreign officials. The United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan described the slayings of the 17 civilians as “gruesome” and “reprehensible.”

“This criminal act is unjustifiable and totally disregards the sanctity of human life,” the mission said a statement.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai also condemned what a statement from his office called a “massacre” and “an unforgiveable act.”

U.S. Marine Gen. John R. Allen, commander of the International Security Assistance Force, as the NATO coalition in Afghanistan is formally known, called the killers cowards who had targeted innocent men and women.

“This callous act clearly demonstrates the insurgents’ willingness to stop at nothing in terrorizing civilians,” Allen said.

But what precisely had happened remained unknown. Ahmadi said that he could not confirm how many of the victims had been beheaded and how many shot, and he said the motive behind the killings was not clear. He said that Afghan intelligence agencies were trying to gather accurate information, and that the dance party rumor was just one of many

“There was also a rumor this morning that the murdered people were accused of spying for the government – that that is why they were killed,” he said. “There was a rumor that it was a boys’ party in which the boys had worn girls’ dresses and were dancing. There was another rumor that these people were killed in retaliation for the death of Taliban’s commanders. These were all rumors.”

Wahab, the Musa Qala tribal elder, said that the claims that the killings were sparked by a dance party were “propaganda” and “absolutely false.”

In an interview with McClatchy, he offered what arguably may be the most plausible account of the motives behind the killings. He said that 15 of those murdered were male prisoners of the Taliban related to Afghan government officials and were beheaded in retaliation after three Taliban commanders were killed a few days ago at Musa Qala in a coalition airstrike.

A statement from the Helmand governor’s office on Saturday had confirmed the death that day of three Taliban commanders in a coalition airstrike at Musa Qala.

“While the (insurgents) were beheading the men, two women from the village, who were between 60 to 70 years old, came out of their homes and started screaming for the Taliban not to kill them,” said Wahab. “But the Taliban shot those two women and beheaded the 15 prisoners.”


tldr: Taliban Islamist insurgents beheaded 17 civilians, including two women, who were holding a party with music in a southern Afghanistan village. Officials said that Afghan intelligence agencies were trying to gather accurate information, and that the dance party as the reason for the beheading rumor was just one of many. Many scoff at the idea, saying women would not have been dancing in such a conservative area of Afghanistan. Local leaders say it is not possible to sing a song in a Taliban-controlled area – let alone have dancing, and especially women dancing.

Ok. Now. I am not very familiar with Afgan culture and tradition. And I have not had the pleasure of having read on Taliban and terrorist laws. But when is dancing and singing a justifiable reason to behead anyone? Again, there might be cultural nuances that are lost on an American like me, but please explain these laws and how the beheadings are justified. And why are authorities never clear and never have complete reliable information on things like this. I'm listening.
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
August 28 2012 00:12 GMT
#2
It is more that the Taliban tries to enforce a very strict version of whatever it is that believe these days.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Verator
Profile Joined June 2010
United States283 Posts
August 28 2012 00:14 GMT
#3
First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.

And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.

Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. -- Bertrand Russell
iNbluE
Profile Joined January 2011
Switzerland674 Posts
August 28 2012 00:14 GMT
#4
People are killed everyday for no reason. Terrorists kill innocent people, armies all over the world kill innocent people, and some cultures just don't have our extreme respect for life.
ლ(╹◡╹ლ)
Xiron
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1233 Posts
August 28 2012 00:16 GMT
#5
On August 28 2012 09:14 iNbluE wrote:
People are killed everyday for no reason. Terrorists kill innocent people, armies all over the world kill innocent people, and some cultures just don't have our extreme respect for life.


*For human life.

I think this is just a media strike to reignite the hate towards those terrorists. 17 dead are nothing special in afghanistan right now. It's really sad this stuff happens all the time though.
"The way of life can be free and beautiful. But we have lost the way. " - Charlie Chaplin
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
August 28 2012 00:19 GMT
#6
law are flexible in Afghanistan. It gets made, applied and executed by the party which is the strongest in the respective region. Upper echelon taliban somehow developed the idea that music is bad. So anybody who listens to music risks his live. Authorities are never clear because they have no say in south Afghanistan.

Karzai (afghan president) gets called major of Kabul in many areas of the country and that's for a reason. To make it clear, government often has no reliable information regarding such things because there are no reliable government institutions in the area. State governors usually work together with the taliban.
Gijian
Profile Joined February 2011
United States273 Posts
August 28 2012 00:31 GMT
#7
Hmm...I really don't think the dancing and music was the reason for the attack. I am more compel to side with McClatchy argument that it was a retaliation that was not compelled by religious reason but more like revenge.
DrThorMD
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada359 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-28 00:37:29
August 28 2012 00:36 GMT
#8
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote:
First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.

And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.

Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.


Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
Damn your Chronoboosts!
appletree
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark109 Posts
August 28 2012 00:49 GMT
#9
On August 28 2012 09:36 DrThorMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote:
First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.

And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.

Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.


Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.


It's not an actual religious law, more like something, taliban decided to force in as a law, and it's been working, people down there, are scared to death, by 'laws' like that, and been so for along time. Which is why ISAF NATO forces sometimes bring loudspeakers down to greenzone, and play music, to taunt the taliban.
a
neversummer
Profile Joined September 2011
United States156 Posts
August 28 2012 01:10 GMT
#10
It's called sharia law, and it's not very flexible.

It's easy to condemn a people and its culture for its shortcomings and (extreme) cultural differences; it's quite another to do something about it. The American government is already walking an incredibly thin line, a line in which there is very little gray area as interventionist policy seems to have a polarizing effect upon not only the American constituency, but the international community as a whole. There are those who applaud the United States for setting a standard of intolerance toward forces of injustice such as genocide and political subjugation, and there are others who condem us for mettling in the affairs of other nations and, in their view, making the situation worse than it previously was.

My bias is inherent, and I won't try to dispute it. Do I think this is a travesty? Absolutely. Do I think the United States has, from a historical perspective as well as in the contemporary context, had a duty and/or obligation to intervene and restore order? Possibly. But do I think we possess the resources to extend our hand further throughout the Middle East?

Absolutely not. The military component of America's hard power is unquestionably suited for the task, but its economic sustainability is largely at risk. This, combined with other, more subtle forces of soft power, such as cultural influence and international integrity, creates an unfavorable situation in which the risks are far greater than any potential reward.



Those scientists better check their hypotenuses, dude.
teddyoojo
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany22369 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-28 01:38:42
August 28 2012 01:28 GMT
#11
On August 28 2012 09:36 DrThorMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote:
First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.

And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.

Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.


Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.


But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

i guess in their (fundamentalists) wicked mind they interprete dancing as "misleading men away from the path of allah"
and u can guess for yourself what the humiliating penalty is, well its the quran so guess.

of course not 100%, but that passage is quoted a couple of times when quran/dancing comes up. makes kinda "sense" aswell.

oh ur only asking for quotes that say punish sins with death?

5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger ... will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."

4:15 "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them."

"The Prophet said, "The prescribed Law of Allah is the equality in punishment (i.e. Al-Qisas)." (In cases of murders, etc.) (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 26)"
Esports historian since 2000. Creator of 'The Universe' and 'The best scrambled Eggs 2013'. Host of 'Star Wars Marathon 2015'. Thinker of 'teddyoojo's Thoughts'. Earths and Moons leading CS:GO expert. Lord of the Rings.
amd098
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (North)1366 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-28 01:50:57
August 28 2012 01:33 GMT
#12
On August 28 2012 09:36 DrThorMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote:
First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.

And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.

Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.


Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.



There isn't anything that says to do so, but these people have a very different interpretation as they are very uneducated. They feel that everyone who does anything they dont like equates to an act of war, and even then they ignore the laws of war. My friend has been there, he said its like a no mans land, Karzai has no control outside his own city.


Edit

"But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty."

The 'Humiliating penalty' is not something that is meant to be applied by human hands, rather it is in the afterlife. That doesnt mean you run around chopping heads like some savage. A better translation is "And some people buy words for mere playing that they may mislead from the path of Allah without knowledgeand to make fun of it. For them are the humiliating torments."

Other use of humiliating penalty/punishment

"And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell, it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment. (34.14)"
North Korea is best Korea!
Sickkiee
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Japan607 Posts
August 28 2012 01:37 GMT
#13
Oh god you're not allowed to dance? Is there a specific reasoning behind that as I am not well versed in the arts of the Qu'ran or Sharia/Taliban law.

Lifes too short to be small.
FeUerFlieGe
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1193 Posts
August 28 2012 01:49 GMT
#14
God damn, Salem witch trials all over again
To unpathed waters, undreamed shores. - Shakespeare
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
August 28 2012 01:55 GMT
#15
And now let the bashing of Islam and Sharia begin. People use the Sharia the same way people use the Bible, they pick and choose. Muhammad Yunus uses the Sharia to justify giving to the poor and women's rights. Taliban uses it for persecution of those who are not like them.

And quote the Quaran all you want, but I personally put more blame on the individual rather than the religion.
appletree
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark109 Posts
August 28 2012 01:56 GMT
#16
On August 28 2012 10:37 Sickkiee wrote:
Oh god you're not allowed to dance? Is there a specific reasoning behind that as I am not well versed in the arts of the Qu'ran or Sharia/Taliban law.



Yeah, and music isn't allowed either, they believe it's too vulgar and shallow, and that allah does not approve of it. Also it is just a mentally way of supressing the locals. Though they do love whenever ISAF vehicles play a little song in their presence (the locals) and they have an hysterically funny way of dancing
a
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10833 Posts
August 28 2012 02:43 GMT
#17
Theory of the attack seems to be evolving:

Though initial reports of Monday's killings say the 17 victims were beheaded for taking part in a mixed-gender party in the southern Helmand province, officials now say the deaths may have been the result of a rivalry between two Taliban commanders over the two women in the troubled Musa Qala district.


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/08/2012827141644149141.html
ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
HoLe
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada183 Posts
August 28 2012 02:49 GMT
#18
How depressing. Thinking about Daniel Pearl now. Some parts of the world just aren't out of the stone age yet.
Terran.
imJealous
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1382 Posts
August 28 2012 02:57 GMT
#19
I love how the official responses basically say "oh yeah 17 people were beheaded, no big deal. But we want to make it absolutely clear that it wasn't because women danced. That would NEVER happen in our district!"
... In life very little goes right. "Right" meaning the way one expected and the way one wanted it. One has no right to want or expect anything.
OsoVega
Profile Joined December 2010
926 Posts
August 28 2012 03:03 GMT
#20
It was time to get out with a month of invading. All that needed to be done in that country was destroy terrorist bases, devastate the Taliban government and capture Osama bin Laden. Now all we're doing is allowing our soldiers to be murdered by the people they train while the Afghans use their democracy to vehemently reject freedom and Western values. Get out of Afghanistan and go after the real sponsors of terrorism and war against the West.
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