• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:36
CEST 17:36
KST 00:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 2 - RO4 & Finals Results (2025)10Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week0Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer12Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 2 - RO4 & Finals Results (2025) Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Rain's Behind the Scenes Storytime Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOP Starcraft Global #22 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - WB Finals & LBR3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Echoes of Revolution and Separation
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 32386 users

The Flaw of Esports - Reinnn

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Gotmog
Profile Joined October 2010
Serbia899 Posts
August 07 2012 15:46 GMT
#1
http://reinnnn.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/the-flaw-of-esports-system.html?m=1

Quite an interesting read...
It's from a (now) former dota writer/editor...but i am willing to bet that this applies everywhere.

It's a long article, but i found it worth a read.
"When you play the game of drones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground"
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
August 07 2012 15:52 GMT
#2
TLDR: writing for esports websites doesn't pay the bills.

Does anyone think it did?
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 15:54:08
August 07 2012 15:53 GMT
#3
Replace "underpaid workers" with "mostly volunteer workers."

edit: dang, 7k
Writer
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
August 07 2012 15:54 GMT
#4
I don't know if it's just me, but it was really quite difficult to read that article. It didn't seem well written - I'm not sure if that is typical of his content quality or if it's just because it's a blog post.

However:

Third flaw. Underpaid workers. Let me tell you something eSports. I can live without your “gaming gears” and your “LAN event trips” but I need to rent a room for my dog and my cat and my bird and my snakes while feeding them too! The only real people getting decent pay from “eSports” are the owner of these organizations solely because they are exploiting all these flaws. Salary payments are often late by months too and how the hell am I suppose to bring my pet pig for vaccination in the vet?


He's making a joke here, right?
Yargh
KvltMan
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Sweden1609 Posts
August 07 2012 15:54 GMT
#5
Chobopeon, is that you?
Get crunk
Nevermind86
Profile Joined August 2009
Somalia429 Posts
August 07 2012 15:56 GMT
#6
Volunteers are the best of workers.

-Henry Ford.

I was a writter and admin for a latin american wc3 page, in spanish of course, I put so much effort on that site along with some of my other friends, we made it a really good webpage until wc3 died in latin america around 2009-2010, also in the last 3 jobs I've had i've been a volunteer, especially in the last two jobs I was really really underpaid but I enjoyed every bit of it (DJ in a stripclub, yea doesn't it sound fun), what I'm trying to say is, volunteers always do a good job, I'm not saying the guy doesn't have a point but even though I don't visit TL much isn't it run by volunteers?, I think it's doing pretty ok, maybe it was because Dota was not as big as Starcraft that they ran out of good volunteers... or something.
Interviewer: Many people hate you and would like to see you dead. How does that make you feel? Trevor Goodchild: Those people should get to know me a little better. Then they'd know I don't indulge in feelings.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 15:57:48
August 07 2012 15:56 GMT
#7
Seems for more that he's pissed he couldn't make a living off doing writing/editing in "esports". Rather naive if he thought he could. He even goes and attacks Gosugamers/Joindota for not paying enough basically. Don't really see how it's worth attention. Nothing we haven't heard before without all the anger.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 16:12:50
August 07 2012 15:58 GMT
#8
I think overall his complaints are real, yet misguided. Yeah, volunteer workers are that: workers and unless you show them a parallel of motivation of why they should do something, they won't do it. They have lives and they like/want to do other things; but they also want to help.

You need to illustrate constantly the points of why someone would want to do something in favour of your organization and site. Yes, incentives work and although he felt he didn't need them, a lot of people wouldn't mind free stuff in exchange for their work.

Not going to disagree with a lot of top dogs being selfish, ignorant people. I've only met a small fraction and already I have my dislikes (and it takes a bit for me to entirely write you off).

For instance, MYM were constantly enticing me with higher pay, gaming gears, and LAN event trips although not even a single thing was fulfilled.


This is true, a lot of organizations suggest to you "possibility of travel" when it really more relies on your location and who is cheaper to send. This is normal and pretty natural, but it feels a bit misleading because it isn't necessarily about amount of work, but more about both where you live as well as how long you've actively been working with the organization (loyalty and dedication matters)

With all these flaws in mind, I closed my books on eSports and decided to “retire” indefinitely and all my efforts over the past year are nothing but a good looking paragraph on my resume.


I don't see why this is bad. My entire CV/Resume is E-sports stuff ranging from player-managing to event organization to various forms of writing (political, journalistic, social media)

Obviously, I poured this out to joinDOTA management considering I’m invaluable and irreplaceable to them so that they can try to offer me a deal allowing me to work full time for them (considering I work 12 hours a day for them anyway).


He must be misguided, amount of time doesn't equate to invaluableness. He hasn't been there for long and thus they probably didn't gauge him as worthwhile as he thought. I used to do 10+ hours a day for a few teams just being available for the players and always doing something towards their travel, accomodations, waiting to hear back from outside organizations and that didn't make me irreplaceable. Your background doesn't matter because sometimes the jobs you do are simply just demanding a dedicated person and that's doesn't solely make you invaluable or worthy of a full-pay, you need to show more. Few get paid and those few wokred their way up, it's a slow process; especially in writing where everyone writes.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334375

It's common knowledge that most jobs in E-Sports don't pay and no one makes the illusion that it does.

On May 03 2012 05:17 Torte de Lini wrote:
Uncharted and Unsung [Getting what you put in]

Motivation is a strong force in the human mind to go that extra step. To change from just a spectator, consumer or fan of E-Sports to a cog of the many organizations that propel itself to both victories and media exposure. Your work is the community's gain. For every iconic person to do something great for the community, there are at least 100 other people who have their own form of contribution without a single mention or recollection of their name. If you want to get into E-Sports, you need to have the right reasons lined up:
  • There is no money involved, this is not some scare-tactic, a harsh way to keep your expectations low. There is very little money involved and if there is; it is very likely never going to come to you. Everyone is an investor: an investor of time, financials or hard-work. You can be too, the currency in E-Sports, not just StarCraft II, is passion. There is no green in competitive gaming, but there is a ton of passionate people wanting to do that little bit to make something big.

  • There is no fame. There is, however, a lot of self-promotion to those who don't quite get the idea that long-term work and effort pays out much more than short-term recognition. In E-Sports, it never mattered how many people knew you, just those who can do something or give you further opportunities. How many people can you name that have come and gone after their brief stint in the spotlight (I can name maybe 8). Now, name me the top 6 people who are the most influential to you; can you also name me what they've done and how long they've been doing it? One day, everyone may know you or what you have done, but its beyond the foreseeable future. For now, focus on what you can do, how you can do it and what it does overall to the scene and to the people that rely on you.

  • The reward is making cool things happen. Whether hosting a fun tournament, managing a fun team, or even helping people at work follow along to games they can't watch, E-Sports is filled with people who do what they do simply for the sake of doing it. If you want to get involved in the E-Sports scene by donating your time, energy, and money, it should be because of what you want to do with it, not what you want it to do for you.
There is a common misconception about this section of professional gaming that there is a lot of money either being withheld by the big boys up top or being spread around in large quantiites to the recognizable names of today. Neither are really true and in reality, everyone has dumped in more than they can pull back to sustain themselves. That's just how the industry is today and the reason why E-Sports relies heavily on volunteer staff to continue to both propel this world into the mainstream lifestyle as well keep it from falling apart with the lack of organization and professionalism.

In the end, however, it's never truly work unless you don't enjoy it. If you don't like the steps you are walking up, then getting to whatever top you aim for will always be more difficult, time-consuming and difficult to endure than you hope. What you'll gain from E-Sports is both the experience to work on projects you want to sincerely succeed as well as meeting new people who are worlds different in personality, understanding of the world as a whole (not just E-Sports) and experts in areas you've yet to try or even know about.

This is neither a warning or a suggestion, but rather just an outline of what's to come.This is both coming from personal experience and my own point of view, but to tell you what will happen with what you want to do and will do in E-Sports is to expect something in a scene that is always unexpected and growing positively. I hope to work with all of you in one way or another and know you can do everything possible.

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 16:02:48
August 07 2012 15:58 GMT
#9
On August 08 2012 00:54 JinDesu wrote:
I don't know if it's just me, but it was really quite difficult to read that article. It didn't seem well written - I'm not sure if that is typical of his content quality or if it's just because it's a blog post.

However:

Show nested quote +
Third flaw. Underpaid workers. Let me tell you something eSports. I can live without your “gaming gears” and your “LAN event trips” but I need to rent a room for my dog and my cat and my bird and my snakes while feeding them too! The only real people getting decent pay from “eSports” are the owner of these organizations solely because they are exploiting all these flaws. Salary payments are often late by months too and how the hell am I suppose to bring my pet pig for vaccination in the vet?


He's making a joke here, right?


Yes, he's not that good of a writer although improved since his days from writing for MYM. He's another of one of those who went into e-sports as a non-player with unrealistic expectations. It's definitely foolhardy to call a flaw at this point for any genre of gaming. There are flaws with e-sports for sure, but he's not exactly highlighting the more obvious/serious ones.

Edit:

The part that gets me is how he thinks that his writing (pretty obvious from this) is worthy of a sustaining salary. Like slow down please.
Get it by your hands...
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
August 07 2012 15:59 GMT
#10
Yea he's basically saying the flaw is that there isn't enough money.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 16:09:03
August 07 2012 16:02 GMT
#11
Every industry starts somewhere, money will come...
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
August 07 2012 16:04 GMT
#12
On August 08 2012 01:02 GreEny K wrote:
Every industry start somewhere, money will come...


I don't believe it will for at least another 5 years. Short of derailing this topic altogether, the problem lies in the diversity of titles in "e-sports".
Get it by your hands...
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 16:12:36
August 07 2012 16:05 GMT
#13
edit top post

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
AmericanUmlaut
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany2577 Posts
August 07 2012 16:09 GMT
#14
Team Liquid is powered almost entirely by the willingness of a small percentage of the community to provide remarkable amounts of work for no pay. Far from being a dead end that spells the doom of e-sports, unpaid journalism and community organization provided by the community itself, with administration provided by a few paid workers, is the likely future of all journalism (see: YouTube). From the article, it sounds like Reinnn signed up for an uncompensated (or as good as uncompensated) job, then was unhappy when it turned out that the job was uncompensated.

"I did volunteer work. You gave me a gaming mouse. I don't want a fucking gaming mouse, I want a middle-income salary. This industry is going nowhere."
The frumious Bandersnatch
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
August 07 2012 16:09 GMT
#15
On August 08 2012 01:04 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2012 01:02 GreEny K wrote:
Every industry start somewhere, money will come...


I don't believe it will for at least another 5 years. Short of derailing this topic altogether, the problem lies in the diversity of titles in "e-sports".


It doesn't have to be instantaneous, it may take time but it will develop.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 07 2012 16:13 GMT
#16
It seems like he was looking for a niche that either didn't really exist, wasn't big enough, or he didn't fit.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 16:17:41
August 07 2012 16:14 GMT
#17
That and the fact he was writing for MYM. Christ that organization was shady as fuck as anyone who followed competitive DotA can tell you.

Edit:

Funnily enough, he's the second person to post on TL about e-sports in a cautionary/negative manner who use to be under MYM.
Get it by your hands...
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 07 2012 16:16 GMT
#18
There are a lot of organizations that really take advantage of people and they're pretty easy to spot upon first contact when you apply.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
starfries
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada3508 Posts
August 07 2012 16:19 GMT
#19

Even the higher echelons of eSports are full of immature and selfish pricks.

I'm pretty sure the higher echelons of anything is full of immature and selfish pricks. Welcome to the real world?

In fact, the whole article reads like someone who just got his first taste of the real world and didn't like it.
DJ – do you like ramen, Savior? Savior – not really. Bisu – I eat it often. Flash – I’m a maniac! | Foxer Fighting!
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 07 2012 16:23 GMT
#20
On August 08 2012 01:19 starfries wrote:
Show nested quote +

Even the higher echelons of eSports are full of immature and selfish pricks.

I'm pretty sure the higher echelons of anything is full of immature and selfish pricks. Welcome to the real world?

In fact, the whole article reads like someone who just got his first taste of the real world and didn't like it.


The real world has this theatre act where you work for pricks, but get paid to tolerate them.

It's a real issue where you work for free and have to tolerate ego-maniacs who love themselves for being at the top of something so small.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech63
RotterdaM 52
RushiSC 26
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 51431
Calm 7809
Bisu 1668
EffOrt 1239
Hyuk 579
Stork 446
Snow 255
firebathero 206
actioN 206
Soulkey 147
[ Show more ]
Mong 88
Rush 78
Barracks 51
sSak 47
Pusan 43
TY 33
Yoon 30
PianO 30
Movie 27
Aegong 27
Rock 26
soO 24
Terrorterran 22
Sacsri 17
ivOry 12
Free 12
Hm[arnc] 10
Dota 2
Gorgc6303
qojqva2696
syndereN404
XcaliburYe206
Fuzer 33
Counter-Strike
markeloff523
ceh9433
edward121
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor191
Other Games
singsing2375
hiko1339
Dendi729
DeMusliM441
C9.Mang0331
crisheroes250
ArmadaUGS202
elazer159
Liquid`VortiX104
Mew2King61
KnowMe54
Trikslyr41
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 84
• poizon28 45
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki18
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 6187
• WagamamaTV187
League of Legends
• Nemesis6116
• Jankos2605
• TFBlade860
Upcoming Events
BSL: GosuLeague
3h 24m
Hejek vs Aeternum
Semih vs TousaN
Replay Cast
8h 24m
The PondCast
18h 24m
RSL Revival
18h 24m
Harstem vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
WardiTV Invitational
20h 24m
ByuN vs Reynor
Clem vs MaxPax
OSC
20h 54m
Replay Cast
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 18h
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 23h
SOOP
2 days
[ Show More ]
SC Evo League
2 days
Road to EWC
2 days
SOOP Global
2 days
Future vs MaNa
Harstem vs Cham
Circuito Brasileiro de…
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
Sziky vs JDConan
Cross vs MadiNho
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Road to EWC
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
4 days
UltrA vs TBD
Dewalt vs TBD
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #3 - GSC
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.