The Flaw of Esports - Reinnn

Third flaw. Underpaid workers. Let me tell you something eSports. I can live without your “gaming gears” and your “LAN event trips” but I need to rent a room for my dog and my cat and my bird and my snakes while feeding them too! The only real people getting decent pay from “eSports” are the owner of these organizations solely because they are exploiting all these flaws. Salary payments are often late by months too and how the hell am I suppose to bring my pet pig for vaccination in the vet?

On August 08 2012 00:54 JinDesu wrote:
I don't know if it's just me, but it was really quite difficult to read that article. It didn't seem well written - I'm not sure if that is typical of his content quality or if it's just because it's a blog post.

However:



He's making a joke here, right?

On August 08 2012 01:02 GreEny K wrote:
Every industry start somewhere, money will come...

On August 08 2012 01:04 Judicator wrote:


I don't believe it will for at least another 5 years. Short of derailing this topic altogether, the problem lies in the diversity of titles in "e-sports".

Even the higher echelons of eSports are full of immature and selfish pricks.

On August 08 2012 01:27 Torte de Lini wrote:


You don't, that's the beauty about working for free, whether you work or not; nothing changes.
But that's not real life, it's not the same.

On August 08 2012 01:35 Torte de Lini wrote:


You're saying he got his first taste of the real world, I disagree.

On August 08 2012 01:35 Torte de Lini wrote:


You're saying he got his first taste of the real world, I disagree.

On August 08 2012 00:53 ]343[ wrote:
Replace "underpaid workers" with "mostly volunteer workers."

edit: dang, 7k

On August 08 2012 02:04 Offhand wrote:
Yeah, what he did would be more or less equivalent to asking for a full time position after being hired as a temp. Sure, maybe you did great work and the people there are appreciative but that doesn't mean they can hire you fulltime with money that isn't there. Claiming he went above and beyond what was expected is great, but also not a garunteer of more money. Of course you put 12 hours a day into your DOTA job, you wanted to, you would have spent most of those 12 hours on DOTA related things anyway.

I don't understand the number of people, mostly around my age, that are convinced that they can just waltz into the top of the esports industry somehow. Be it players, casters, or community personalities, how hard is it to understand that competition might be fierce in a field largely considered a hobby to most people.

On August 08 2012 01:09 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
"I did volunteer work. You gave me a gaming mouse. I don't want a fucking gaming mouse, I want a middle-income salary. This industry is going nowhere."

On August 08 2012 02:35 HardlyNever wrote:
I think the players winning tournaments and signing contracts and still not getting paid is a much bigger issue than whatever this is.
.

On August 09 2012 05:52 Rob28 wrote:
I'll tell you why e-sports on the whole is a flawed business...

People think e-sports can be huge in North American markets, as in the case with SC in Korea, but there's one big difference between Korea and North America. The difference is culture. I've never been to Asia, but I can tell from footage and articles and such that Koreans respect the hell out of people they acknowledge are better than themselves. There is no jealousy for the successes of others, only admiration. North Americans do not have such respect. If anything, the success of others only brings disdain from contemporary North American people, who believe that they can do anything anyone can do, but better (if they put the effort into it). It's an ego thing; places where e-sports will flourish are places where egos are not over-inflated.

Video games are a way of life here. Everyone plays them, all the time. And there are a lot of people who play them with dreams of turning it into some kind of profit-generating lifestyle. It's why articles on "how to be a part of e-sports" always start out with "don't expect money". But North Americans by and large believe that if they play enough games, they can be good enough to earn money like some people (there are people in the world making money off playing videogames, right?). The problem lies with the idea of watching other people succeed in the areas that most people think they too can be good at: gaming "pros" are seen as competitors... seen as succeeding in the field you have not yet (but probably someday could, if you buy into the delusion). Whereas a kid in korea could look at Boxer and go "Wow, he's accomplished so much! I am impressed!", a kid in North America says "Pfft, I could do that too, if I had time to waste practicing videogames 24/7". As a result, the North American kid doesn't want to watch other people succeed at video games. They aren't impressed by accomplishments in the same way that people living in a respectful society are.

It's the same effect in a whole lot of different fields where talent can arise where people believe they too can succeed. It's why everyone hates instant celebrities who do nothing (like Kardashians, Jersey Shore, etc.) or ones who perform badly but still generate attention and fame (Rebecca Black, Justin Bieber, Torres, etc.). People look at them and go "I could do that shit! That should be ME making all that money and nailing those supermodels!". So they get pissed, and they don't buy into what the person is doing, because they feel that anyone could do it (even if they can't). From what I can tell, Korean culture isn't like that, on the whole, and it's why e-sports can kinda work there. but not so here. Success that is not your in north America is not worth celebrating in the eyes of North Americans. We think our bosses are idiots, that douchebags don't deserve the hot women they attract, and that people in sportscars are overcompensating. it's why guys like incontrol get made fun of for being overweight, rather than for performing badly. We are, in the most basic sense of the word, "petty" people when we see success in others. And it's why we don't flock to the screen in mass numbers enough to sustain a successful e-sports industry.

Basically, the only people who would care about e-sports are ones who play the game so much that they believe they can go pro too. And so they don't want to watch someone achieve their dreams... they hate that guy. They think they could do a better job. It's why for every Day9 out there, there are a hundred more small time Youtube commentators who think they can be better... it's why random people hated so much on KellyMilkies... it's why as many people hate Idra as love him...

On August 09 2012 06:23 Aro wrote:

Excellent explanation of how I'm entitled, disrespectful, and petty. Thanks for taking your time to explain that to me.

If this is your justification for why esports will never 'make it' in NA, how do you explain the success of similar industries? (For example, poker?)

On August 09 2012 06:32 Yurie wrote:


Poker lives on people thinking they can do better. Their money fuels the top.

On August 09 2012 05:52 Rob28 wrote:
I've never been to Asia, but I can tell from footage and articles...

On August 09 2012 06:23 Aro wrote:

Excellent explanation of how I'm entitled, disrespectful, and petty. Thanks for taking your time to explain that to me.

If this is your justification for why esports will never 'make it' in NA, how do you explain the success of similar industries? (For example, poker?)

On August 09 2012 05:52 Rob28 wrote:
I'll tell you why e-sports on the whole is a flawed business...

People think e-sports can be huge in North American markets, as in the case with SC in Korea, but there's one big difference between Korea and North America. The difference is culture. I've never been to Asia, but I can tell from footage and articles and such that Koreans respect the hell out of people they acknowledge are better than themselves. There is no jealousy for the successes of others, only admiration. North Americans do not have such respect. If anything, the success of others only brings disdain from contemporary North American people, who believe that they can do anything anyone can do, but better (if they put the effort into it). It's an ego thing; places where e-sports will flourish are places where egos are not over-inflated.

Video games are a way of life here. Everyone plays them, all the time. And there are a lot of people who play them with dreams of turning it into some kind of profit-generating lifestyle. It's why articles on "how to be a part of e-sports" always start out with "don't expect money". But North Americans by and large believe that if they play enough games, they can be good enough to earn money like some people (there are people in the world making money off playing videogames, right?). The problem lies with the idea of watching other people succeed in the areas that most people think they too can be good at: gaming "pros" are seen as competitors... seen as succeeding in the field you have not yet (but probably someday could, if you buy into the delusion). Whereas a kid in korea could look at Boxer and go "Wow, he's accomplished so much! I am impressed!", a kid in North America says "Pfft, I could do that too, if I had time to waste practicing videogames 24/7". As a result, the North American kid doesn't want to watch other people succeed at video games. They aren't impressed by accomplishments in the same way that people living in a respectful society are.

It's the same effect in a whole lot of different fields where talent can arise where people believe they too can succeed. It's why everyone hates instant celebrities who do nothing (like Kardashians, Jersey Shore, etc.) or ones who perform badly but still generate attention and fame (Rebecca Black, Justin Bieber, Torres, etc.). People look at them and go "I could do that shit! That should be ME making all that money and nailing those supermodels!". So they get pissed, and they don't buy into what the person is doing, because they feel that anyone could do it (even if they can't). From what I can tell, Korean culture isn't like that, on the whole, and it's why e-sports can kinda work there. but not so here. Success that is not your in north America is not worth celebrating in the eyes of North Americans. We think our bosses are idiots, that douchebags don't deserve the hot women they attract, and that people in sportscars are overcompensating. it's why guys like incontrol get made fun of for being overweight, rather than for performing badly. We are, in the most basic sense of the word, "petty" people when we see success in others. And it's why we don't flock to the screen in mass numbers enough to sustain a successful e-sports industry.

Basically, the only people who would care about e-sports are ones who play the game so much that they believe they can go pro too. And so they don't want to watch someone achieve their dreams... they hate that guy. They think they could do a better job. It's why for every Day9 out there, there are a hundred more small time Youtube commentators who think they can be better... it's why random people hated so much on KellyMilkies... it's why as many people hate Idra as love him...

I've never been to Asia, but I can tell from footage and articles and such that Koreans respect the hell out of people they acknowledge are better than themselves. There is no jealousy for the successes of others, only admiration.

On August 09 2012 06:46 Blennd wrote:

You seem like you're quite the expert.

On August 08 2012 01:35 Judicator wrote:
Holymaster (of the former dota-league and the Farm4Fame series in DotA and current admin over at Joindota.com posted a nice response for the discussion thread over there.

http://forum.gamesports.net/dota/showthread.php?8705-The-Flaw-of-Esports-Reinnn&p=128222&viewfull=1#post128222

On August 09 2012 07:05 SupLilSon wrote:


How is Poker a similar industry to SC2? I've seen quite a few people make this claim with no actual justification. Even if they were so similar, Poker's success would have no baring on SC2 and E-sport's success. Professional Poker has been around for decades and it took it quite some time to get as big as it is now.

As for the article, I think it justified why he isn't living comfortably off his journalism skills. And if money needs to be reallocated to certain group in E-sports, it's the players and teams, not the writers.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring specifically to TV contracts for poker, where there is a market for people watching broadcasts of something that they think they can do better.

On August 09 2012 08:11 overt wrote:


This should be put into the OP as a provides a wider perspective on the subject.

Honestly I don't foresee eSports going to a place where it'll truly go "mainstream" in the west. Maybe when I have grandkids. So for now it's pretty much going to be made up of volunteer workers and people getting paid shitty salaries. Don't like it? Quit. There are thousands of people who would eagerly do the same work for free.

On August 09 2012 07:52 Rob28 wrote:


I am so glad you have chosen to focus on that one sentence, rather than my point. You must be quite the erudite fellow.

On August 09 2012 08:17 jdseemoreglass wrote:
The real problem with the current conception of esports is that it is based around this idea of a massive expanding community instead of a small tight knit and very passionate group of fans. You will never get the masses to love a game as difficult and complicated as Starcraft anyway.

Esports = Casuals = LoL/WoW etc.

I'd rather not have this game be designed and patched with your average gold player in mind, nor for tournaments to cater to overly sensitive mouth breathers. I'd rather not have a caster go into great detail explaining something as obvious as the importance of creep spread because some viewers might have installed the game yesterday.

Sure, esports might mean more popularity and therefore more money and possibilites for the people who do have a passion. But look at it this way... Would you rather your favorite band start writing pop songs so that they can perform near you in a sold out venue, or would you prefer they stay true to themselves and perform in some shoddy yet intimate environment with truly passionate fans? The people who have a true passion will support something they love in spite of the lack of money, and that should be the true vision for esports.

Nero8 August 2012 03:37
Be a man, eat your pets

On August 09 2012 05:52 Rob28 wrote:
I'll tell you why e-sports on the whole is a flawed business...

People think e-sports can be huge in North American markets, as in the case with SC in Korea, but there's one big difference between Korea and North America. The difference is culture. I've never been to Asia, but I can tell from footage and articles and such that Koreans respect the hell out of people they acknowledge are better than themselves. There is no jealousy for the successes of others, only admiration. North Americans do not have such respect. If anything, the success of others only brings disdain from contemporary North American people, who believe that they can do anything anyone can do, but better (if they put the effort into it). It's an ego thing; places where e-sports will flourish are places where egos are not over-inflated.

Video games are a way of life here. Everyone plays them, all the time. And there are a lot of people who play them with dreams of turning it into some kind of profit-generating lifestyle. It's why articles on "how to be a part of e-sports" always start out with "don't expect money". But North Americans by and large believe that if they play enough games, they can be good enough to earn money like some people (there are people in the world making money off playing videogames, right?). The problem lies with the idea of watching other people succeed in the areas that most people think they too can be good at: gaming "pros" are seen as competitors... seen as succeeding in the field you have not yet (but probably someday could, if you buy into the delusion). Whereas a kid in korea could look at Boxer and go "Wow, he's accomplished so much! I am impressed!", a kid in North America says "Pfft, I could do that too, if I had time to waste practicing videogames 24/7". As a result, the North American kid doesn't want to watch other people succeed at video games. They aren't impressed by accomplishments in the same way that people living in a respectful society are.

It's the same effect in a whole lot of different fields where talent can arise where people believe they too can succeed. It's why everyone hates instant celebrities who do nothing (like Kardashians, Jersey Shore, etc.) or ones who perform badly but still generate attention and fame (Rebecca Black, Justin Bieber, Torres, etc.). People look at them and go "I could do that shit! That should be ME making all that money and nailing those supermodels!". So they get pissed, and they don't buy into what the person is doing, because they feel that anyone could do it (even if they can't). From what I can tell, Korean culture isn't like that, on the whole, and it's why e-sports can kinda work there. but not so here. Success that is not your in north America is not worth celebrating in the eyes of North Americans. We think our bosses are idiots, that douchebags don't deserve the hot women they attract, and that people in sportscars are overcompensating. it's why guys like incontrol get made fun of for being overweight, rather than for performing badly. We are, in the most basic sense of the word, "petty" people when we see success in others. And it's why we don't flock to the screen in mass numbers enough to sustain a successful e-sports industry.

Basically, the only people who would care about e-sports are ones who play the game so much that they believe they can go pro too. And so they don't want to watch someone achieve their dreams... they hate that guy. They think they could do a better job. It's why for every Day9 out there, there are a hundred more small time Youtube commentators who think they can be better... it's why random people hated so much on KellyMilkies... it's why as many people hate Idra as love him...

On August 08 2012 00:52 bonifaceviii wrote:
TLDR: writing for esports websites doesn't pay the bills.

Does anyone think it did?

On August 09 2012 08:58 BuddhaMonk wrote:


No offense but this is a lot of drivel. North American audiences hate pro gamers? That's such nonsense I don't even know where to start...

How do you explain the fact that traditional sports are the most popular sports in Korea just as they are in North America?

There are certainly cultural differences between Asia and North America, but those differences have very little to do with the relative success of e-sports in Korea.

The reason SC1 took off the way it did in Korea is because of two factors, first SC1 was released at the time when "PC Bangs" were exploding in popularity, thus leading to SC1 being very popular. How did it translate to a successful e-sports industry? Like just about every other popular media phenomenon in Korea, a cabal of media business people got together and created the industry from nothing. You may know those people as KeSPA.

On August 09 2012 10:31 omgimonfire15 wrote:


You completely missed the point of his post. you are correct, but his point was not that we hate pro gamers, it was about the attitude of western culture compared to eastern cultures. A lot of western culture is negative in a way. We love watching people suffer, so we love fml stories and reality shows where they hurt themselves. As the original post pointed out, we have people that don't do anything and are famous, or become so famous when we dislike what they do. In korea, when someone is rich or famous, they are mostly admired because they were succesful in what they did. In America, due to our egos, we hate it when we perceive someone succeed in an area we find simple or insignificant.

On August 09 2012 08:35 Blennd wrote:

Probably because your point is ludicrous to any sane person? You realize your point is also an argument that traditional sports can't be popular in North America? And yet traditional sports are massive and growing in North America. Therefore you are wrong. Pretty simple really. You're just another Korean nuthugger who knows absolutely nothing about Korean culture. Lemme guess, you also think starcraft is the "national sport" in Korea and think Flash makes 600k a year and everyone knows who he is when he walks down the street?

I've filled my previous post with enough examples, but let's draw some contrast, shall we?

E-sports vs. normal physical sports. One is more popular than the other. Why? Because the average person knows they cannot do what professional athletes do, or that they could do it, but it requires a HUGE investment of physical effort. E-sport athletes, on the other hand, do the things we all do daily; sit and play videogames. In the minds of most, their level of accomplishment is not as out of reach, and is therefore less impressive and more attainable. Therefore, we do not share in the enjoyment of viewing people do what we believe ourselves to be able to do better with marginal effort required, and we envy/loathe those individuals who have succeeded in those types of areas. At the very least, a lot of these feelings are subconscious, but they are almost a prevalent psychological fact of Western culture.

I'm not saying it's the only reason for the lack of e-sport mainstream success, but I am saying that it is an idea that ought to be given consideration.

On August 09 2012 10:38 UTL_Unlimited wrote:


Hi. We love it reality TV shows and when people hurt themselves as well. I feel like you're looking at the OLD eastern cultures where respect was important. Most of Asia HAS been westernized and thus, 'Asians' are no longer the "everyone respects everyone!' kind of sentiment. Once again, my point is also very general.

But to talk about the original post, I believe that, while it is sad that the 'journalist' never was paid the salary that he 'may' have deserved, it's also understandable that e-sports is NOT at the stage where full salaries can be paid to everyone who goes well beyond the expectation. I hope that the 'journalist' does well in the future and that he'll find a job where he can do what he loves and can get the salary he deserves.

On August 09 2012 15:34 Belisarius wrote:
I feel like there may be a connection between his badly written blog post and his lack of success as a writer...

On August 08 2012 00:46 Gotmog wrote:
http://reinnnn.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/the-flaw-of-esports-system.html?m=1

Quite an interesting read...
It's from a (now) former dota writer/editor...but i am willing to bet that this applies everywhere.

It's a long article, but i found it worth a read.

Also, isn't journalism the go-to job if you want to be underpaid? I think this applies to every country. Yes there are VERY few that make good money with it but 1.8k is probably more than 80% of the journalists on this planet make..

On August 09 2012 22:42 thedz wrote:


1.5k a month comes out to an annual salary of $18,000. Working 8 hours a day on minimum wage in the U.S. nets some an annual salary of $20,880. So the "good money" that he's asking for is actually quite small. He'd be making more money working full time at a McDonalds.z

On August 09 2012 22:55 ragz_gt wrote:


Working full time @ McD is a much tougher job also.

On August 09 2012 15:34 Belisarius wrote:
I feel like there may be a connection between his badly written blog post and his lack of success as a writer...

On August 10 2012 01:26 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Where is all the money in esports going? If it's not to the writers, then it has to be the players right?

On August 10 2012 01:26 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Where is all the money in esports going? If it's not to the writers, then it has to be the players right?

On August 09 2012 23:02 Grend wrote:

And probably not his dream job..