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Here's a new game that happened, I just added this.
http://drop.sc/227010
Okay, so this game just happened.
ZvT, Shakuras, Mid-masters.
Terran goes mech, I identify it, he actually opens some sort of 1 base all-innish gas first play and I came out way ahead when identified it but even with a huge economic lead it doesn't really matter.
I notice he goes air, so I think that he may not have many siege tanks so I can capitalize on it with a roach attack. It didn't really work out too well, and I tried to go ultra/np and that didn't really work well either, but cut his army a bit.
So eventually he puts PF's all over the middle of the map, he actually does this quite early.
So noticing he has a lot of tanks, and PFs, I think ultras are not the way to go, and instead that I should go BL/Infestor of some sort, and race upgrades. Double evo, double spire, I had 3/3/3/3 pretty early on.
But it doesn't matter. Terran deathball > Zerg deathball.
He has a TON of tanks, so I can't use infestors to get close at all, and I can't get my broodlord/corruptor in at all because he has a TON of vikings/ravens, and the raven count starts to get high real quickly.
Don't know what to do against this sort of play... I don't even think roach aggression works well anymore either. I used to do that, just roach max while getting infestor tech, but now I see that as all-innish, and it won't work if Terran is actually trying to do a mass siege tank/thor 3 base attack (which roach/infestor does okay against, but then why make roaches at all and just go rush broodlords in that case...).
Unlike the last game, mass IT spam doesn't work well because he has a shitload of tanks and PFs. And unlike the last game, ultras don't work well because, well, he has a shitload of PFs and tanks.
I just end up dying to his deathball. In that first rep, Ultra may have worked because he had so much air, but in this game I didn't think ultras would work with is PFs and high siege tank count.
I'm starting to run into this a lot on ladder ;/
So I just played a game vs Terran. He went reactor hellion, I don't know why, but I just had a huge economic lead from the whole game. Basically I lost to mass raven made off only 4 base, against a Terran I constantly checked to make sure he was being honest and safe, and he was so there wasn't any point some sort of "Just go fucking kill him" move would have worked (please don't tell me that if you dont at least watch the replay...)
I see him going mech, so I identify I have 2 choices here: Mass roach to kill him, or rush broodlords. I usually mass roach if I see Terran being greedy, like starting raven/banshees on just 3 base, not making tanks, but with an overseer I see he's got a healthy amount of tanks, so roaches won't be a good idea, especially on Cloud Kingdom. So I pretty much completely skip roaches and go straight into Hive, and start expanding all over his side of the map because I know sometimes going against mech gets like that.
He takes a fourth pretty quickly, and with going Broodlords I know I can't really stop that (yet). I expand all over the map, and extractor trick out a pure broodlord/corruptor/infestor army of like 220 supply.
I start to wear him down at his fourth, but he is starting a raven fleet so I have to be cautious. Thinking that he won't really get anywhere if I confine him on 4 base, I expand every base on the map, get 3/3 AND 3/3 with double spire.
Well it doesn't really work out, and his pure Thor/Viking/Raven army just owns me. I thought it wouldn't be that bad if I'm actually mining out the geysers to his bases, but it doesn't really matter, because apparently he has no problem affording this all on 4 bases.
Trying to FG his ravens over and over doesn't really work because I take too much damage from his thors with similar range. I thought maybe I could perfectly micro and just clip him with the edges of the FG, but that's terribly energy inefficient and I just can't really get enough going, and I don't think it's a good idea to mass infestors because he's got a lot of mech units still.
Despite mining out the gas on every base on the map except his 4, I'm gas starved, I have trouble getting the army I need while having the drones I need (at one point I have too few drones, so I had to remake up to 80 again).
Nothing really works, and I just GG out because there's just no hope and I have no money. He has no money either, but there's nothing to really beat his money composition. I didn't think it'd be this bad with him only on 4 bases, but it was.
http://drop.sc/220805
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There is no such thing as the Terran deathball. Also, stating that "nothing really works" is a far cry from the truth.
You should have had enough units to deny his fourth. A mech player cannot very well hold a fourth in a TvZ, unless the Zerg player had gotten far behind in the early game. In your case, you should have denied this base for much longer or mounted an attack. It may be worth utilizing your overlords for more scouting information
User was warned for this post
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Neural parasite would work a lot better than trying to fungal ravens, in that composition NP'ing a raven or two that has enough energy for HSM will do a lot of damage, similarly if it is a 200/200 deathball then NP'ing a thor that does splash damage to air would be a pain for him to deal with, even if it only gets off 1-2 volleys per NP, the units will die fast if he is staying clumped up at all.
Using that composition, if he's trying to use the thors to shield ravens from your infestors you can NP the thors, if he's using the ravens to engage and thin the army before thors come in... you can NP the ravens. PDD/HSM are both very powerful tools against his own army.
User was warned for this post
EDIT: you had two very good opportunities to use mass neural parasite. The first was when you first engaged with the broodlords and he started pushing up the ramp with a few thors / tanks, the second was when you made a huge infested terran line to engage his army and he only had thor/raven at the time. Once he had battlecruisers added into the mix with vikings raven and thor, it is a very hard composition to beat.
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You played against late game terran mech.
Things that you should have done in that game:
Either attack as soon as broodlords were ready (you could have got them 2 mins earlier but instead you made a second wave or corruptors)
Max roach and attack everywhere you can (ling muta style)
Don't clump your broods against thor raven, so much splash!
Get neural earlier
More upgrades, he was 3-3 ground and air
For next time:
Try nydus play and deny bases, you did well with all the expanding but he got to do what he wanted
Also might want to throw ultras in there, bonus to armour 
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I feel like the reason you lost is because you went for the army that his army countered. You stayed on brood/Infestor all game and refused to tech switch. He had loads of vikings and an Ultra/Infestor switch could have really done some damage. More importantly, you didn't abuse his immobility at all. You just kept attacking in to his army and planetaries at the fourth. Instead, a few maxed roach drops or muta attacks in the main to eliminate his production and his other bases could have been really good. Either of those two strategies could have beaten him. The problem was going brood infestor against a unit composition designed to defeat it and just attacking repeatedly in to him making inefficient trades.
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On July 13 2012 03:35 RevBubba wrote:
I am at work so I haven't had time to watch the replay, but neural parasite would work a lot better than trying to fungal ravens, in that composition NP'ing a raven or two that has enough energy for HSM will do a lot of damage, similarly if it is a 200/200 deathball then NP'ing a thor that does splash damage to air would be a pain for him to deal with, even if it only gets off 1-2 volleys per NP, the units will die fast if he is staying clumped up at all.
Using that composition, if he's trying to use the thors to shield ravens from your infestors you can NP the thors, if he's using the ravens to engage and thin the army before thors come in... you can NP the ravens. PDD/HSM are both very powerful tools against his own army. I will add to this post once i watch the replay...
Too many ravens to effectivly NP, and i'd say that it was the ravens protecting the thors after watching the replay.
It was basically 200/200 mech into sky terran at 3-3 ups vs infestor broodlord with no support.
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Try neuraling some of his thors and make them target the vikings. The thor splash damage on top of the fungal is really efficient. Also if he doesnt have any tanks or helions try throwing down some infested terrans
User was warned for this post
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infested terrans, man.
later on you started trying to drown him in infested terrans, but you needed to do that on the first big battle when you still had 16 broodlords.
Normally when I do this kind of thing I have about 10 broodlords for killing ground, 10-12 queens, 10-12 infestors, and as many corruptors as I can possible handle. With transfuses the broodlords never die so they hold back the thors indefinitely, and I just want to have a monstrously high corruptor count for fighting his vikings, and then I carpet transfuse over anything orange. against ravens you need to keep some kind of spread on the corruptors, which is hard to do.
because I am spending all my time spamming transfuse, I can't really control my infestors very well and it's hard to reactively fungal units as they get close in range. so what I do is expend as much energy as I possibly can on infested terrans right at the beginning of the fight and then focus on using my queens, and only use the infestors if there is a really juicy fungal or neural target.
It works pretty well.
Anything that flies over the infested terrans will die. anything shooting ground has to choose between the broodlings and the infested terrans, and will probably naturally target broodlings first because they are closer. infested terrans are very good against thors and obviously good against air. Not great against tanks or hellions, but thats why you have broodlords too. You can try to target PDDs with infested terrans as well. I also tend to bring overlords into battle, primarily for dropping creep to give my queens some mobility, but also whenever he spreads out vikings against fungals, you will always have vikings and thors at the back of the terran formation who shoot at overlords instead of coming forward to shoot something useful.
With this in mind, I always go double evo against mech, but I stop upgrading carapace. I go +melee/+ranged, even if I am going roach in the midgame. carapace beyond +1 just doesn't cut it against mech if he upgrades. Basically I want to get to hive with +3 attack on both my broodlings and my infested terrans (and my queens!), and you can catch up on carapace later after you are already +3. Start that second spire as soon as possible. While you were waiting for your greater spire to finish, you were banking tons of money (which is natural because you wanted to morph a ton of broodlords) but that's when you want all of your upgrades going at full strength. Upgrades cost time more than they cost money.
Also you may have had a pretty nice timing on his 4th if you hadn't overmade corruptors, but I'm not entirely sure.
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On July 13 2012 03:35 zmansman17 wrote:
There is no such thing as the Terran deathball. Also, stating that "nothing really works" is a far cry from the truth.
You should have had enough units to deny his fourth. A mech player cannot very well hold a fourth in a TvZ, unless the Zerg player had gotten far behind in the early game. In your case, you should have denied this base for much longer or mounted an attack. It may be worth utilizing your overlords for more scouting information
I disagree terran does have a deathball with mech that kills like any ground army. That's the only deathball though when they get high food count with pure mech units ^^.
I'll look at the replay just give me 30 minutes or so from this post and i'll edit this or post and tell you what you should have done.
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OK, seems like Im the only one who watched the replay. Though I think that there were a few chances in that game when a huge roach or roach/drop attack could have worked (if you accidently happened to be on a such a timing), it is not a stable thing to go for no matter what with what you scouted or could have scouted. Also I think your third was late or you lair was late, one of those things should have started earlier imo, but I think that's all not so important, as the question at hand is, how to beat a Terran that gets this army up.
So I think there are multiple ways to do it if it comes this far. One is, to not go Broodlords in the first place when he doesnt have a lot of bases, like in this game here. Rather try to trade with Ultra/ling/infestor multiple times, so that he is not allowed to go for that army in the first place. But then again, a meching player with so many PFs should usually beat Ultras, if he doesn't go for that much air early, so I don't think this is really staple either.
I think it basically comes down to the army composition you had, and if you watch the first battle, I think you could have won if you really controlled well, what I think you didn't do - but it's really hard to do so in this situation.
But what I would have done - basically as an outsider who had the time to think about it and who was in similar situations as well, though not THAT drastically - spread your Broods, the way you did, then spread the corruptors the same way as the Broods. Then you take the infestors, burrow them, move them quite a bit back and shift queue a fuckton of ITs, a-move your corruptors and Broods in, so that they start to hit at the same time when the Infestors throw their balls and then go back to your infestors, unburrow them and start fungaling. With the mass ITs first and the Broodlings first, the Infestors should not get hit a lot (unlike the way you did it, without ITs and without all BLs simoultanously starting an assault). When a Zerg can get this off (so basically has unlimited time to set up the attack, like in your case  ), Zerg can win this fight. Else... hm not so much, BLs don't unsplit fast enough and I think a human being just doesnt have the apm to suddenly unsplit Broods, Corruptors, and throw down a thousand ITs, when these armies meet on the move.
A different approach would be, that you could have sieged the natural and then the production and (f.e on cloud kingdom at the natural)), force him to go through a choke with the Thors.
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On July 13 2012 03:47 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:35 RevBubba wrote:
I am at work so I haven't had time to watch the replay, but neural parasite would work a lot better than trying to fungal ravens, in that composition NP'ing a raven or two that has enough energy for HSM will do a lot of damage, similarly if it is a 200/200 deathball then NP'ing a thor that does splash damage to air would be a pain for him to deal with, even if it only gets off 1-2 volleys per NP, the units will die fast if he is staying clumped up at all.
Using that composition, if he's trying to use the thors to shield ravens from your infestors you can NP the thors, if he's using the ravens to engage and thin the army before thors come in... you can NP the ravens. PDD/HSM are both very powerful tools against his own army. I will add to this post once i watch the replay... Too many ravens to effectivly NP, and i'd say that it was the ravens protecting the thors after watching the replay. It was basically 200/200 mech into sky terran at 3-3 ups vs infestor broodlord with no support.
There were two great places he could have NP'd, the first engagement the ravens did not have much energy for HSM after the initial broodlord hits (3 HSM's left) and ~16 infestors died in the engagement shortly after.
The second was when he had 30+ infestors and made infested terrans, spreading infestors and NP'ing thors would have been a great way to engage the army and trade more cost effectively.
Keep in mind the terran could safely get BC's ONLY because he was able to keep all his thors and ravens alive. he was feeling safe enough to transition where the BC's would be overrun by corruptors.
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I will say for the early game you are doing something a bit wrong. In terms of getting gas so early, getting ling speed and then not taking guys off gas you are not getting enough drones.
at 8:22 in the game (just random time I paused) you should have more then 31 drones. I would work on that as you should have a lot more by 8:30 in the game that is so low xD.
With your overlord before he killed it you could have kept droning instead of making a lot of lings. His tanks were sieged up and he still had a bunker. That is a sign to drone as he is playing defensive and not aggressive at the time.
On a side note that terran was greedy as fuck lol 3 CC with 1 factory then adding 2 armories for double upgrades then 2 more factories then a 4'th CC.
Something I would do if I were you would be to make an overseer as soon as lair finishes and see what the terran is up to. If you could have seen what he was doing you honestly could have done fast drops with roach/ling and killed him. There is no way he would get enough units considering the amount of greed this guy did and you would see it with overseer so it wouldn't be a blind counter either. Just something I would recommend in the future .
Going straight hive wasn't bad either that's an acceptable response to what you saw with the later overseer.
For future reference when you know you are facing mech get neural parasite asap. Very, very useful spell to do vs mech and I would highly recommend it.
I will say you played pretty greedy as well making no units if he had just moved out he could have like A moved to victory xD.
17 corruptors is overkill you had like no units when you made those and no supply to morph them into bl's. I would make a smaller amount next time. And why you made 13 more after you lost your roaches confuses me to. That was a bad decision.
You should have made some more drones as you only had 60 after putting up all those spines and what not, remember that for the future! Also getting an ultra cavern to transition into those if he kills all your bl/corruptor would be a good option to imo.
That wasn't a smart move to send in all your corruptors like you did, lost a lot of them uselessly and thors do great with viking support vs corruptors/bl since corruptors/bl auto clump which makes thors splash do insane damage.
What I would have done if I were you would have been attack with the bl's, once he unsieges tanks move in with infestors to neural/fungel everything. You probably would have won the battle had you done this.
You went from 18 infestors to 1 which is really really bad and that's like a ton of gas wasted T_T.
Then you engaged and lost due to having lost all infestors, no neural and yeah.
Also to be honest I think you still could have won the game. Had you remaxed with ultra/ling/infestors you could have CRUSHED the terrans army and if he used HSM it would have killed his own ravens due to splash since your ultras would be right under them (and you use fungel so they can't move  ).
And I know I am repeating, with 22 infestors you could have thrown down all those IT's and neuraled like his whole army and you probably would have won the fight again. I would highly recommend using that neural with a ground army you will see mech get crushed and then you can fungel his ravens all day long.
Then being super clumped up with bl's and 2-3 hsm's killed all your broods and you just lost most of your army ineffeciently and thus the game. Not sure why you like to fungel mech armies it isn't that effective xD.
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watching rep right now.
Will edit as watching.
4:30
You see the bunker, but instead of just letting it finish and making a spine ( it's too far away I think) you send your drones at the marines and lose three drones... That is a LOT of drones early game. about 1/5 of your economy at the time you lost the drones.
This could even be the biggest mistake of the game. Honestly, what is the bunker going to do to you? It's just wasted minerals by him because it is not close enough to you to do anything other than deny the rightmost 2 mineral patches of mining.
Also, if they put the bunker in the open, you only need to pull six drones and target the bunker, not 8.
5:30
Pull after you have enough gas for speed. It's really bad for your economy not to...
I would have sent two lings to the watchtowers, one ling to the ramp, and one to the third. You see he has reactor hellions and no second gas (from the gas steal) AND that he is still mining gas.
That could mean a couple of things.
1. Marauder Hellion all in
2. Triple CC + Banshees
3. Expand and Banshees + Hellions (pressure) into whatever (probably a delayed 3rd CC)
4. Mech + 3CC
I would say that you got your 3rd and 4th queens way too early, you have 13 larvae sitting there doing nothing.... 6 of those could be drones right now... :/
as a side note, until you have 16 drones mining minerals in your main, you should NOT be rallying drones to your natural. It is actually sooooooooo bad for you and even after reading this you probably don't know how bad I mean .
7:30
Supply blocked at 44/44 with only 1 ovie coming... that just sucks :/
8:30
You got your macro hatch WAY too early. Way too little drones. (only 31...) I think this was because you have /76 supply when you only need /5X(whatever X is, but fifty-something) which is like 5/6 more drones.
I disagree with getting a fifth queen. Honestly, your 3rd and 4th queens are not going to do much late game, and the extra tumours could end up hurting you more than helping you, because of wasting APM. I honestly find it useless to get more than 6 tumours,because you can just spread the tumours less and waste less time spreading tumours... and get more creep spread in the end.
10:30
Lair finishes! Get an overseer and see what the Terran is doing!!!
11:30
Now you make the overseer and scout everything. I honestly feel like you shoiuld cancel the spire and make an infestation pit. If you let it finish only make like 10 mutas, and no more.
12:30
Excellent! You've gotten a 4th base!
... You let the spire finish and make no upgrades for air or make mutas.....
13:30
Hive should probably be started now, probably earlier
14:30
I don't care if this is on topic or not, but hell, get overlord speed and burrow... PLEASE!
15:30
11 infestors with 7 more on the way... too... many... infestors.... (if you're going brood lords)
You are going to need a LOT of corruptors so I think that 18 infestors really is too much...
16:30
Spine it up! Hive just finishes, and Greater Spire starts, so I kind of think that since you need another minute, you should REALLY get spines. I feel like terran can kill you very easily at this time so... just do it. : p
And honestly, 92 drones is a little much anyway, so there should be no problem throwing some of them away !
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I kind of feel like going BL/Infestor/Corruptor is kind of bad vs mech. You're not exploiting their immobile force and they can kill yours, so it really makes no sense at all...
I reccomend ultra/infestor/ling/baneling/Nydus. As soon as they head towards your base you can base race them and (importantly!) kill ALL of the starports/do lots of damage.
Also, it is very easy to find terran out of position, so I find that you can pressure Terran even if they are not heading toward your base.
ex. 21:00 you can put a nydus above the fourth and have some infestors fungal the SCVs.
17:30
great job spreading the overlords. I think you should have more upgrades by now btw. You should have a ling burrowed at every base + overlords pooping creep on them.
18:30
You should be getting upgrades on your greater spire, and i think you should have set up with BL's at the fourth (and not made as many corruptors...)
Add queens into your army please. They help a lot b/c of transfuse
24:30
there should be a spine or 2 at each base + a spore in case of banshees
also, he only has 6 tanks, so I think it would be a good idea to try to spine push him.
25:30
Great! you've started sieging the fourth! Now all you need to do is stay spread out and bring your spines to your brood lords.
Also, good job adding in the queens, but they should have been there earlier : P
27:00
Stop retreating and keep attacking! I think if you bring spines and spores you could beat his army easily (along with some 10 reinforcement corruptors)
27:30
Neural parasite and infested terrans are much better against mech than fungal, but since you have so much energy i think you should be using all three spells. (18 infestors...)
28:00
Yeah if you had the spines and spores you definitely would have won that fight...
29:00
You don't have to seige his fourth, I would go for the natural. you could move your spines/spores back to your 7th base (his 5th base) and move back to them when his army comes
also, you should probably have drops by now even if you aren't going to use them.
30:00
You should have ultra and hydralisk tech, even if you're not going to use it. Surprisingly (i know you're going to say hydras suck) they actually are really good if you can use your broodlings to tank the shots. Even if you're not going to use hydralisks you have so much money it would be ridiculous not to have every tech... including nydus
35:00
You should still have 80 drones (probably more), this is probably the reason why you lost the game. You don't have much gas. Your gasses at your fifth (on the east side) aren't filled... which is really bad..
36:00
you see him go to the top left base and destroy it. You did move your army to his fourth which is a great idea!
Your mistake was that you did not throw out two rows of spread infested terrans to zone him away from your army while you killed the fourth/scvs.
Also... dammit... spread your brood lords... That one seeker missle pretty much lost you the game, but if you had Ultra Ling Infestor with Nydus, that wouldn't happen (!)
I think that's it.
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I feel like the reason you lost is because you went for the army that his army countered. You stayed on brood/Infestor all game and refused to tech switch. He had loads of vikings and an Ultra/Infestor switch could have really done some damage. More importantly, you didn't abuse his immobility at all. You just kept attacking in to his army and planetaries at the fourth. Instead, a few maxed roach drops or muta attacks in the main to eliminate his production and his other bases could have been really good. Either of those two strategies could have beaten him. The problem was going brood infestor against a unit composition designed to defeat it and just attacking repeatedly in to him making inefficient trades.
Mech owns ultras pretty hard. I've never seen anyone use Ultras against mech with any success. What would I do with ultras? Attack into double PFs at his fourth, or into his bases where it's all choked up? What immobility too? I 'abused' that by taking his own bases and mining them out, but apparently he only needed 4 bases. So where would I have attacked with ultras?
I didn't 'refuse' to tech switch, I teched to what I thought was best.
infested terrans, man.
later on you started trying to drown him in infested terrans, but you needed to do that on the first big battle when you still had 16 broodlords.
Do you think pure infestor would have been a good idea instead?
I will say for the early game you are doing something a bit wrong. In terms of getting gas so early, getting ling speed and then not taking guys off gas you are not getting enough drones.
Well I got it reactively to his reactor hellion, and I wasn't quite sure what he was doing (he didnt have an expo for the longest time on the low ground, but I eventually determined he was expanding when I saw that SCV move south with that overlord). That's why I kept gas for a while.
Something I would do if I were you would be to make an overseer as soon as lair finishes and see what the terran is up to. If you could have seen what he was doing you honestly could have done fast drops with roach/ling and killed him. There is no way he would get enough units considering the amount of greed this guy did and you would see it with overseer so it wouldn't be a blind counter either. Just something I would recommend in the future .
Well I did see he was meching, but I find that roach drops don't work too well if Terran gets a lot of tanks, I find it's sort of a gamble. Yea roach drops can be really good against mech, but if it doesn't I feel you end up really far behind. I prefer the 'safer' macro route of going broodlords quicker.
17 corruptors is overkill you had like no units when you made those and no supply to morph them into bl's. I would make a smaller amount next time. And why you made 13 more after you lost your roaches confuses me to. That was a bad decision.
I knew he wasn't pushing anytime soon so I decided to max out on corruptors, and then extractor trick broodlords, which is what I ended up doing. I threw away those roaches so I could make more corruptors. You see I try to spore trick out once at 200/200 corruptors, it didn't work too well because I didnt have a bank yet, but I just waited a minute and then did it.
Okay so I'll try to spam more IT next time. And I guess against sky terran, go ultras?
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infested terrans, man.
later on you started trying to drown him in infested terrans, but you needed to do that on the first big battle when you still had 16 broodlords.
Do you think pure infestor would have been a good idea instead?
No, that way your army will die to tanks ez...
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Belial ultra/ling with infestor support and flanking actually does very well vs mech. With the amount of neurals you had you could have neuraled so much mech and with ultra/ling you would have crushed his army. If he goes to focus the infestors your ultra/ling aren't taking damage then. Trust me super good it's how I beat mech ^_^
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On July 13 2012 06:33 blade55555 wrote:
Belial ultra/ling with infestor support and flanking actually does very well vs mech. With the amount of neurals you had you could have neuraled so much mech and with ultra/ling you would have crushed his army. If he goes to focus the infestors your ultra/ling aren't taking damage then. Trust me super good it's how I beat mech ^_^
add nydus! Although on this map it isn't too good, I would say on maps like Metropolis, Shakuras, etc. Nydus can be AWESOME. gives you so much mobility.
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Belial ultra/ling with infestor support and flanking actually does very well vs mech. With the amount of neurals you had you could have neuraled so much mech and with ultra/ling you would have crushed his army. If he goes to focus the infestors your ultra/ling aren't taking damage then. Trust me super good it's how I beat mech ^_^
Really? I've never heard of this, I thought ultras sucking against mech was 'common knowledge'. Like ultra vs thor, ultra vs mass siege tanks, ultras vs PF's...
I'd love to see a replay/vod of this, because I've never seen it happen. Or is it that ultras are good against sky terran? In which case I'd still like to see a rep.
But Ive never heard anyone say ultras vs mech...
4:30
You see the bunker, but instead of just letting it finish and making a spine ( it's too far away I think) you send your drones at the marines and lose three drones... That is a LOT of drones early game. about 1/5 of your economy at the time you lost the drones.
This could even be the biggest mistake of the game. Honestly, what is the bunker going to do to you? It's just wasted minerals by him because it is not close enough to you to do anything other than deny the rightmost 2 mineral patches of mining.
Also, if they put the bunker in the open, you only need to pull six drones and target the bunker, not 8.
But the bunker would deny mining and allow him to make a 2nd bunker, as well put more marines in said bunker. I know I lost some drones there, but I think I made even with how I responded (he lost a couple marines, an SCV, and made a bunker which delays his build)
I think the bunker would have done a lot more than just deny the right 2 patches. With reinforcing marines I think he could take the hatch, or put a 2nd bunker and have done a lot more damage. As it stood, I was okay with losing 3 drones because I killed an SCV, he built a bunker which basically delays his build by like 2 scvs, and a couple marines. I think I bungled the execution though, I was trying to pull back the weak drone but I think somehow I sent like only 2 drones at first, then more, and I was trying to make the get there all the same time.
5:30
I would have sent two lings to the watchtowers, one ling to the ramp, and one to the third. You see he has reactor hellions and no second gas (from the gas steal) AND that he is still mining gas.
That could mean a couple of things.
1. Marauder Hellion all in
2. Triple CC + Banshees
3. Expand and Banshees + Hellions (pressure) into whatever (probably a delayed 3rd CC)
4. Mech + 3CC
I would say that you got your 3rd and 4th queens way too early, you have 13 larvae sitting there doing nothing.... 6 of those could be drones right now... :/
as a side note, until you have 16 drones mining minerals in your main, you should NOT be rallying drones to your natural. It is actually sooooooooo bad for you and even after reading this you probably don't know how bad I mean .
My lings saw the reactor hellion at his wall-off. At first I wasn't sure he expanded, but based on how he was playing I figured he expanded, but I wasn't sure if he was doing a banshee follow-up.
Why do you think rallying drones to my natural is a bad thing? Every pro zerg I watch does this in ZvT / Hatch first. If you watch the early game, you'll notice I meticulously drone pair.
So what this means, is I have 16 paired drones in the main, none in the natural. So I rally the rest of the drones to my natural, until 16 are there, and then I reset rally points. Maynarding hurts you in sc2, unless the next hatch was made wayyy later (ie pylon block), but you see this in ZvP too - people will rally to the natural, then rally to the third. For zerg, it's better to rally than to maynard, because it means more drones early on. If you aren't making drones, then yes, it's more money to maynard over the long term. But rallying means more money in the short term, which means more drones early on, which has an exponential increase in drones for zerg, so it's better to rally, not maynard.
Plus, I drone pair, so I think that is why rallying is better than maynarding in the instance of Hatch First.
Oh i see, I think maybe because I pulled like 6 drones, it was uneven. i see.
7:30
Supply blocked at 44/44 with only 1 ovie coming... that just sucks :/
Didn't he kill an overlord or something? I always make an overlord at 32, then another at 36, and it times out perfectly with the injects. I think that may have tripped me up there.
8:30
You got your macro hatch WAY too early. Way too little drones. (only 31...) I think this was because you have /76 supply when you only need /5X(whatever X is, but fifty-something) which is like 5/6 more drones.
I disagree with getting a fifth queen. Honestly, your 3rd and 4th queens are not going to do much late game, and the extra tumours could end up hurting you more than helping you, because of wasting APM. I honestly find it useless to get more than 6 tumours,because you can just spread the tumours less and waste less time spreading tumours... and get more creep spread in the end.
Isn't 6 queen the standard build these days?
The reason I go 5 queen is because of 3 bases, 1 macro hatch, 1 for dedicated creep spread. I think that's a lot less than 6.
11:30
Now you make the overseer and scout everything. I honestly feel like you shoiuld cancel the spire and make an infestation pit. If you let it finish only make like 10 mutas, and no more.
I didn't make any mutas. I used to cancel the spire when I scouted mech with an overseer, but I don't do that anymore. I just keep it for the lategame. It's useful in case Terran does some weird mech hellion/tank push too. I think it's arguable whether to cancel spire if you see terran is going mech.
If I knew he was going mech before I made the spire, I simply would have made an infestation pit instead. But now that I did make a spire, I'm just going to keep it in case of hellion/tank 2 base all-ins, and just because I'll need it eventually.
Hive should probably be started now, probably earlier
I think i started hive when I confirmed terran was making lots of thors instead of making lots of tanks for a push, but I'll keep that in mind. I thought this hive was already quite quick, but I've noticed I lose a lot of games because my hive is too late, so I'll remember that I should start getting hive earlier than I usually do.
there should be a spine or 2 at each base + a spore in case of banshees
also, he only has 6 tanks, so I think it would be a good idea to try to spine push him.
Well I knew there was no banshees, and I had infestors out. The spines are for the hellion harass, so I had at least 2 spines at each 'outer' base. And I considered massing spines, but I don't think that's a good idea against mech. Every time I've tried that against mech, it doesn't work well.
Mass spore is okay against Terran, for the vikings though. I usually do that, but didn't here.
35:00
You should still have 90 drones, this is probably the reason why you lost the game. You don't have much gas. Your gasses at your fifth aren't filled
yea that sucked. I noticed that. But I don't know, there wasn't really any army I could make at that point to beat what he had.
I think I had an opportunity to win at the fourth, as you guys say, by if I had used my 18 infestors to spam IT around and had been much more aggressive. But he had TWO pf's there, that sucked, and tons of repairing SCVs. And then, with that opportunity gone, there was no way to win anymore I guess. I also maybe should have gone for the natural instead of his fourth?
Thanks for your analysis. I'm going to rewatch again to see more of what you mean, you seem confident that I had the game when I felt like I had lost.
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Go ultra/ling/bling/infestor/nydus...
It's way better vs. mech imo, but BL/Infestor/Corruptor is good too I guess ;/
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I have to mention, from the terran side of view, that his unit control and decision making during fights was remarkable good, he hasn't lost any important parts of his lategame army and catched you off guard way too often with his hsm. :/
Basicly, he was the one who has choosen the fight, and you have done him a favor by attacking him in a direct confrontation.
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EPT
