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Hey there everyone!
Just a lowely scrub here, wanting to discuss the viability of fast thirds in TvP. Currently I use either Bombers low gas FE build, or sometimes a standard 1rax CC, but I wanted look into an option to be more greedy against greedy builds, while making the correct decisions to be safe(r). What I had in mind was a fast third CC.
So my thoughts were to open with a FE build, then to be reactive to the protoss based on their production structures, which is learned by looking at his nexus timing. Firstly, it's easy to note the following which is obviously scoutable before his stalker finishes:
Nexus first → build another CC before more barracks
Second gateway before stalker → expect stalker pressure and make bunker, do standard 1rax expand.
No first Zealot → subtract 15 seconds from the below timings.
Then gauge based on ~nexus timing(note: it would be important to time out when his first stalker completes so to slip into his natural between production cycles, if scv dies before any information, revert to a standard FE build):
Nexus at ~4:30 assume 1gate expand
If no nexus at ~4:30
→ make another barracks, the CC will be made after second orbital.
Nexus at ~4:50 assume 2 gate expand
If no nexus at ~4:50
-> make a third barracks before CC
Nexus at ~5:10 assume either gateway robo or 3 gate expand.
If no nexus at ~5:10 assume heavy pressure build
→ I don't know, what should I do, bunkers, another barracks?
Sentry heavy at ~7:30 assume 6gate
→ make more bunkers
That's what I'm thinking so far. I would like some discussion on a) if this is obviously a terrible idea and I should drop it right now, b) if not, is there some scout timings I'm missing, and how to act on them, and c) are my scout timings off, or should I be doing anything differently?
Thanks guys, much love! Thanks for helping a noob out ^_^
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United States8477 Posts
I don't know exactly how much you follow starcraft, but this is actually fairly common. Fast 3rd CC started being used a lot about a year ago and I think MVP used it more than anyone else back then. However, in the past few months, it's becoming less and less popular, as Terrans prefer to use more standard builds, opting for pressure instead of economy.
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Frankly, there is not a lot of reason to go for a "fast" third, provided you are doing bombers build, or something similar. I define "fast" as sooner then 8 minutes. With bombers style, at around 8:30 you can either expand, or build two more barracks. This decision on whether to expand or be agressive is based on what the protoss is doing (and your own preferences on a response). If you see a quick third you can either try to punish it, or stay on even footing by expanding. If you see a two base all in then build 2 more barracks to deal with the pressure.
Now, if you were to take a third at say, 6 minutes. This not only leaves you vulnerable to pushes from protoss, but also does NOT take advantage of the midgame advantages that terran has when medivacs and stim first come out. By taking this third, you are saying "I want to go lategame" and to be frank, protoss has a much stronger lategame composition than terran. Blizzard themselves have declared that a terran player has to do something in the midgame to cripple the protoss. Bombers build is the perfect answer and will set you up with both agression, and a strong lategame due to the relatively fast third.
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On June 07 2012 03:09 SuperPro wrote:
Frankly, there is not a lot of reason to go for a "fast" third, provided you are doing bombers build, or something similar. I define "fast" as sooner then 8 minutes. With bombers style, at around 8:30 you can either expand, or build two more barracks. This decision on whether to expand or be agressive is based on what the protoss is doing (and your own preferences on a response). If you see a quick third you can either try to punish it, or stay on even footing by expanding. If you see a two base all in then build 2 more barracks to deal with the pressure.
Now, if you were to take a third at say, 6 minutes. This not only leaves you vulnerable to pushes from protoss, but also does NOT take advantage of the midgame advantages that terran has when medivacs and stim first come out. By taking this third, you are saying "I want to go lategame" and to be frank, protoss has a much stronger lategame composition than terran. Blizzard themselves have declared that a terran player has to do something in the midgame to cripple the protoss. Bombers build is the perfect answer and will set you up with both agression, and a strong lategame due to the relatively fast third.
In addition, in many matchups, Terran should prefer taking a third while doing something else productive. The fact that our macro mechanic doesn't inherently increase the permanent worker count means it takes longer for a third to become active and contributing. In turn, this means that it's much more 'smooth' to have something aggressive happening while you try and establish a third, so that the 'hitch' of building the OC/PF where a Protoss or Zerg would get immediate benefit out of a Nexus/Hatchery is covered by an attack or harassment. For example, in TvZ, we're seeing fast 3 OC with Hellion/Banshee as a way to make sure that we have the time and safety to establish it.
Likewise, in TvP, it is MUCH safer to do some sort of Medivac pressure while gunning for a third, because it directly impedes the Protoss ability to take and hold a third while preventing any sort of attack that might otherwise endanger and already established third.
Think of it this way: if my third is already up (like a Protoss might like), I am OBLIGATED to defend it. It's true that defense can be done via pressure, but you will always be more vulnerable to harassment. However, by attacking AS I try to establish my expansion, I forgo the need to defend for as long and in exchange I get to pose tough questions to my opponent as to his army movements (where to put his Stalkers, how many Sentries, what upgrades/tech is he going for, etc.).
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A fast 3rd is a poor decision in most scenarios.
T is behind the P in unit production and upgrades generally, but gets one good window to abuse stim+vacs and expose mistakes. Throwing that window away (by either <7m 3CC, so delaying gas income or 10m3CC delaying+2rax) seems pretty silly when practically all of T comes down to that either 1base possibilities +variations of stimvac timing.
What advantage do you hope to gain against a P with that 3rd instead of attacking at 10-12m? After 13-14m, you should treat P like fighting a hive Z. Note that vs Z, with a 3rd, you can still strike at 14-16m and be at the right time. 14-16m, P is already mostly fleshed out with his primary tech.
The only scenario I can think of where a fast 3rd is OK, is maybe a huge huge map where P elected to get colo, and the movement time to your base outstrips your vac contain.
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I think a fast 3rd CC is only worth it if you plan to do a mass bio 7-8 rax play with delayed ups/medivac.. that way you can still put on pressure with your huge unit count around the critical time toss tries to take a third.
Either way, I don't see either variant (mass barracks or fast third into standard teching into medivacs) holding well-executed 2 base stalker/colossus styles unless you get a very good engagement or flank.
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I like getting fast thirds, but its the final battle that really matters.... Once you get a fast third you're opting to go for a long macro game where protoss is the strongest at.... instead of 3rd CC I think it is better to go for a pressure oriented build...Defeating a protoss deathball can be real challenging as a terran D:
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day9 daily on Bombers Tvp shows you when a 3rd is possible during strong macro. most regularly timed 3rds for terrans on ladder are actually 1-3 minutes later than when they should be. go check it out on blip. 
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EPT
