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Hello TL,
PvT is becoming increasingly frustrating for me. I just can't seem to win that matchup unless I just outmacro my opponent massively and essentially a-move to win. If we have equally good (or bad) macro, I just can't win especially against MMM.
PvT Game
In this game, I start out with 3 Gate Expo, which is what I do almost every game against T. When I lose my natural, I looked at the replay and did not know what I could have done differently. People have always said to go heavy zealot against T and forcefield behind their army to avoid kiting. I tried that and failed pretty bad. Those forcefields were pretty crappy. And then at the major battle, when I get rolled over... Looking back, I probably should not have attacked since he had 1-1 and I was 0-0 but I had 5 colossus and he had minimal vikings. I tried to take advantage of that and that went wrong fast. I didn't know what else I could have done differently apart from not engaging. I guess I should have been upgrading by that point.
Anyway, please TL, help me with either that game or with my general gameplay. I'm sure both need tons of work
Thanks in advance.
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Yeah ， PVT is a big problem for almost every player.I have a strategy that is 3 gates + Twilight Council studying charge.Thats effective against MM. 2 sentries,many chargelots and several stalkers can handle well.
User was warned for this post
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The players I come up against tend to only be high silver or low gold, so take my advice with a pinch of salt, but here's a couple of things I noticed:
1) The Protoss that I really struggle against tend to go for an expo before 4:30, but you seem to sacrifice this for the sake of extra gas, gas that doesn't really get used properly until colossus production, by which time you have four refineries. Try a few practice games without that extra gas, you may find that you don't need it.
2) An earlier expo is vital especially when you have scouted the fact that he hasn't got one, your army did a good job of making sure he couldn't get one. With two bases, you would have been able to support 5 warpgates and hold off that push, which actually came pretty late from him, probably due to his inability to expand.
Very basic advice, but I struggle in TvP against early expanding players, so it may be worth a shot.
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Here's what you did wrong
Macro: your nexus was idle too long in terms of both probe production and chrono boost usage. You should not be cutting probes in the early game unless you are doing some kind of 1 gate FE. Granted, your opponent's macro was 10x worse than yours so it didn't matter this game, but fixing things like this is the easiest way to improve quickly. Once you reach a higher league, having 70 supply at 10 minutes is unacceptable; you need to be in the 80s by then.
Build order: the colossus buildings are far too late. Just look through the replay and count how many seconds you had the money to get a robo or the bay, yet didn't build it. Once again, I draw your attention to the 10 minute mark. At that point you should already have a colossus with range on the way, or both charge and +1 complete if you went for a different build, in addition to everything you had!
Micro: use guardian shield in every battle. Other than that you need to make sure you're on attack move when engaging and right click move when retreating...
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I just spent some time posting here, I am going to repeat some of the same things. Your biggest mistake is how you use (or don't use) your chrono. You are trying to be all gosu keeping your scouting probe alive, but it ends up seeing nothing that it wouldn't see if it just left after seeing his starting position. Meanwhile, your late on 2 early probe cronos and your first zealot. At 4:10 you chrono your gateway out for the 1st stalker. This is a mistake imo, you should be chronoing warp nonstop. Especially since after the stalker comes out, that gateway is idle for about 20 seconds. The point of chronoing a gateway is not just so that unit gets out faster but every following unit. You add 2 gates and expand while you do a stalker zealot poke at 5:45. This part is fine. But mind you that had you been on top of your warp chrono, you would have it done right here. The 1st probe that died could have a pylon up and with 3 warp gates you could have 1 zealots and 4 stalkers right there, where he has 4 marines and 1 marauder. Without changing anything else in your build but your chrono use. Just something to think about.
After you make your forward pylon your probe sits idle for at least 5 minutes. That's throwing away the cost of that probe and everything he could have mined in that time. Something to think about. Also, you were a little sloppy with constant probe production in general, not terrible but you do miss some early.
At the 9:30 mark you have FULL CHRONO on your main. Even if you just make 1 forge and get +1 to burn that chrono, it is well worth it. Remember that a forge doesn't have a ton of upkeep cost. You spend 150, than 100/100 and it's busy for a while and you've got something useful to use that chrono on. Or even getting charge/blink earlier would be a good idea too. You have him contained at 9:30 you're first obs is about to pop, and you leave the contain for no reason. Bad decision. When the obs gets there you can see if he has banshee or drops (which he doesn't) then make that decision. But you had plenty of FF's saved up to deny him a move out. You LET him move out and you LET him take his natural uncontested. You saw he had lots of barracks already and lots of marauders. This pretty much rules out banshees coming that early anyway.
When the first real battle happens at your natural (about 12 min) you have okay FF usage. I suggest when you FF that first wave and cut his army in half, continue to FF not in a line but try and trap his rear wave in against the front row of FF's and have some of his units with 2 rows of FF between him and you.What this does is allow you to kill the front line, some of his units are trapped and cannot retreat, and some of his units are way in back and can't help. So you fight the front row, the ones trapped in the middle, then the units in back. You never have a time when all his units can hit your front line (zealots) In your case when the 1st few FF ware off the units in back can push in and were able to do more damage to your zealots the whole time. Let me illustrate.
+ Show Spoiler +
Also, you make a 2nd obs, if he isn't going banshee and you have your army at home you really don't need 2 obs that early. Using that crono getting 2 immortals out is all it would take for you to win this fight. (and some better FF use 
After he kill most of your army and your nat the game is all but over, you do push back around 18 with some colossus. But you make 2 crucial mistakes. #1 you let some units wander off and suicide for nothing while your at his 3rd's ramp. #2 you don't try and break him. He is way ahead in econ and you know it. You have colossus and he DOESN'T have vikings yet, only med evacs. This is a CRUCIAL timing, you have a few colossus and he has no viking! With good FF's you may have won right here or broke his natural. This is your only chance to win because you are way behind and you needed to seize it. But you didn't attack he got a bunch of vikings out and rolled you, gg.
So other than tactical battle stuff, you single biggest problem is CHRONO. You need to spend a lot more attention to it, and be more efficient and on time with things in your build. Use FF a little better and recognize when you have a chance to break them. GL
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Have to agree with highlight poster, but there's a point I'd like to hammer in:
Never, never, never stop building probes. Until you reach like ~75, then you can stop. Before that make sure your nexus is always always always making probes. That is a very solid principle you need to drill into your game play. After that, you can worry about stuff like spending your resources and keeping it low. When you get to a higher level, you will start to figure out where you can cut probes to optimize your build order, but for now don't worry about stuff like that.
It kinda boils down to personal playstyle, but I really like to rush for upgrades in PvT. I feel it benefits toss far more in this match-up because terran tends to dictate how the early game goes, while the protoss army is at its strongest in the late game. That is why I get really fast upgrades, to allow me to build towards a very powerful late game position. In PvZ I usually have one Forge to upgrade attack and possibly a second Forge thrown down later. Basically, I get my upgrades by ear, at a very modest and sensible timing vs Zerg. My PvT is completely different. I rush for upgrades like there's no tomorrow, like double Forge with lots of chrono saved up to hit 2/2 at the 13min mark of the game.
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While watching the replay, i thought you were going for mass gateway units because the colossus were so late. Nonetheless, you completely neglected the upgrades which is a killing point.
When going against MMM, try getting early 0/2/0 upgrades so that marines will tickle your units.
Also, your transition was late as if you were hesitating into what to transition. If your HT or colossus had been sooner, you would have that game with some upgrades.
Finally, you overlooked the DTs. Your opponent had no ravens and putting some Dts pressure when he moves out wouldve required him to skip mules or lose units.
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Thanks to everyone for the replies. I guess I really need to work on my probe production and chrono use and getting upgrades quicker.
Quick question, how soon should I get colossus range? Like after my first one or should I wait until I have maybe 2-3. It seems weird to spend so much money on an upgrade that affects only 1 unit.
@Reborn8u: The reason I left the contain was that I was getting worried about him having medievacs and ferrying his army past my contain. I assumed by the 9 minute mark, he's likely to have them, so I left.
@ Cecil: Thanks so much for the video. It was immensely helpful in seeing how tiny mistakes quickly compound and to see how my build order can be tightened up.Thanks for taking the time to do so. One question though. You said that my first pylon was oddly placed. How come?
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On July 23 2011 05:29 mahi29 wrote:
Quick question, how soon should I get colossus range? Like after my first one or should I wait until I have maybe 2-3. It seems weird to spend so much money on an upgrade that affects only 1 unit.ng his army past my contain. I assumed by the 9 minute mark, he's likely to have them, so I left.
@ Cecil: Thanks so much for the video. It was immensely helpful in seeing how tiny mistakes quickly compound and to see how my build order can be tightened up.Thanks for taking the time to do so. One question though. You said that my first pylon was oddly placed. How come?
I think I usually get it if I have the money to. If for instance I feel the Terran is going to be aggressive soon, I spend the vespene on more units. If I feel there's no sign of aggression before it finishes, I go ahead and upgrade + chrono it.
I also wanted to mention this in the video, but you don't want anything near your ramp except your army! This is because if the Terran comes up the ramp at you, you want a nice concave around his units. If you have a pylon + other stuff in the way, it will ruin your mobility and your concave.
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