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Hello,
I've been having issues lately with terrans that attempt the one base and 2 base versions of this build. I've tried different tactics, this replay I think showcasing my best chance yet but still failing. I know vs the one base version you just have to go heavy gateway units with some immortals mixed in and engage in the middle of the map to get them to waste their PDD, but in this replay where we both FE and he does it off 2 base (he attacks as he starts his third) I ambush him in the middle of the map but my units can't hold up despite equal food counts.
Replay:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=222461
Any help or discussion is appreciated, thanks.
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should have probably made a thread about this myself, since i'm having immense problems with it on ladder (and in truth probably has been the reason i haven't been laddering these past few days.
In practice with someone from my clan, it can be defended by rushing high temps (practicing 2 basing version) he did end up winning in the end, but i think that was in part due to him playing better from that point on.
Also heard phoenix openings crush it, which in my experience they do pwn banshee openings. All in all though i would love some other input, cause neither of these feel like very viable ways to play and i'd much prefer being able to play standard until i can react.
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Im also having similar troubles with this build... Even without the raven I find it incredibly difficult to deal with
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imma go ahead and predict this thread quickly fills up with people having the same problem and no one with a solution xD
Edit: unless of course David kim post in this thread. jpjpjp ^^
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As a terran who uses this build, I have lost to phx/zealot before, and one time phx/zealot/immortal.
The PDD is a big deal, as is flanking the tank line. Warp prism zealots are quite solid against this build.
In TvT if I am about to be contained sometimes I pull scvs to crush the contain as they seige up; I feel a similar use of probes could benefit a protoss player who is about to have his expo seiged 
Edit: When I see stargate opening I throw down armory for a thor though
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Yea I suppose you could cut stalker production and get phoenix instead, also please mention your league if you have a possible solution, sometimes things are lower leagues don't work at higher leagues.
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~1600 master league here... the best counter i've found for this is phoenix / chargelot, into HT's.
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1-base: Once you scout this build immediately put down a stargate (and robo if you don't have one already), cancel your expansion and chrono out phoenix with heavy zealots and a few sentries. Also make 2 or so observers. Try to delay his push by being annoying and kiting with your 2 or so early stalkers, but don't lose any. Phoenix eat through banshees and can lift tanks (killing banshees is your priority). Using guardian shield to minimise marine damage is very important.
2-base: shouldn't be much of a problem if you have a colossus or 2 out, try engage to force a PDD outside your base and retreat. You can also use phoenix if you wish, but gateway units + phoenix + colo off 2 base is difficult on your gas.
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Just watched the replay, have some tips. I think if you employed some of them you could easily have won.
You were VERY SLOPPY with chrono. This is a big issue for most protoss. Use that juice! If you expand fast (like you did with 2 gate) there is no need to crono so many probes. As long as you constantly producing probes there is no need to chrono them. It will just eat up supply, costing you many more pylons sooner and you will have a weak army and slower production and less gateways. When a protoss 4 gates all of there chrono goes to warp, I believe this should almost always be the case. If you 2 or 3 gate expand you should be chronoing warp research nonstop. 1 gate expo you would probably want to use some on that gateway so you don't die before warp and extra gateways finish. But I win many games because when I 3 gate or 2 gate robo expand, I crono warp and If they expand with only one or two bunkers, I can break them or cause massive damage. You may have been able to because he was teching really hard behind his expansion. With just 2 warp gates that you got warp faster on, and 1 or 2 fast immortals you may have been able to kill that 1st bunker before the 2nd one got up. However, this is just 1 possibility I'm not trying to tell you to all in or die. I'll now go into the mid game response.
After your nat is up you do well with poking using stalkers. But you then leave 2 probes on 2 towers the rest of the game. Don't do this. They should be mining, use 2 army units instead. Stalkers are probably the best choice because they can run away from any threat.
Once you have your nat up, you've poked at the front, and been on those towers. You add gateways, I agree with this. But you should ALWAYS have something to spend your chrono on. You also get a robo. You get an obs and scout you see the tanks and starport. You should then go straight for charge. Charge is ALWAYS good in pvt against bio or tanks.(except some crazy 3+ starport build) but you would know that with the obs scout. You should have got a twilight sooner and crono'd charge nonstop, and been pumpin immortals or going for colossus which are also never bad to have.
Now for the 12:30 engagement. You handled this really bad. You didn't use FF, you engaged to the death under a pdd. What you did right was engaging mid map, you don't want this at your doorstep, but the point of engaging a raven build mid map is to force the pdd. As soon as it is thrown, YOU RETREAT. Use FF's to delay his progress as well and take what ever pot shots you can with your stalkers (without sacrificing them!) You want to buy time to get as many warp waves as possible out. The only other major suggestion I could make is a protoss player should ALWAYS have pylons placed on the map outside of their base. Like a zerg who keeps a little flock of lings hiding somewhere on the map to back stab. Protoss should always be ready to employ this tactic. Force him to split his attention to attacking and defending. Just 1 wave of zealots to backstab can do miracle. Another mistake I can really say is you overproduced obs, you made 3 or 4 (the 1st one got killed) but you made to many. You needed more robo units out, immortals or colossus. You also added a stargate and templar archive. IMO it is too much to have 5 gates + twilight upgrading + robo + stargate + templar archive. Had you not build the stargate or templar archive you could have had many more units out.
Had you used crono better, had charge sooner, ff'd his army when you met mid map and retreated after pdd was down, back stabbed (preventing re-enforce), and had more immortals and gateway units you would have crushed that. You don't need any "special composition" just good control, better macro, and better decision making. Hope this helps!
Edit, If you face a 1 base version of this I have 1 more piece of advice. I see top pro's making this mistake as well, when the attack arrives at your natural DONT WAIT TO PULL PROBES. You want them fighting with your army NOT after your army is dead. Sure you may loose all 15 probes that you pull from your natural BUT if your natural lives and they did not expand you are way ahead and probably will be free to counter attack and deny them from ever taking their natural while you probe back up. This is especially true when they 1base all in with the raven marine tank and pull scv's.
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If you see it coming cancel your nexus if you can. You'll likely end up ahead.
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if they execute it really well (like thorzain's style) then phoenixes are surprisingly useless. minigun said on his stream you have to get really fast colossus out, and artosis recommended the same in a tutorial he did. difference - artosis will 1base vs 1base all-in while minigun will try to hold his natural.
don't go heavy stalker for obvious reasons, and don't go heavy zealot (with of without charge). if they don't pull scvs, chargelots will clean this push up easy, but if they pull ~15 scvs your chargelots are pretty much nullified and you've just lost the game. whether or not the pull probes is not the question here, you need to pick the correct build order because more often than not, pulling probes won't make a difference against this type of all-in.
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heavy zealot sentry immortal mix normally works well, main thing is guardain sheild and good control, but if he gets close to you ramp you can forcefield to keep him out and i sometimes get a warp prism and drop some zealot in his base atm i'm 1-1 verse this build, if it's a allin i'll win, if it's a expand time it's normally harder.
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. You didn't use FF, you engaged to the death under a pdd. What you did right was engaging mid map, you don't want this at your doorstep, but the point of engaging a raven build mid map is to force the pdd. As soon as it is thrown, YOU RETREAT. Use FF's to delay his progress as well and take what ever pot shots you can with your stalkers (without sacrificing them!)
I don't feel like FFs would do anything besides impede my zealots from killing more marines, I think sentries are only good for guardian shield vs this build, and I didnt have many stalkers so engaging under the PDD didn't effect things much. I should have just stuck with charge/colossus. Also leaving stalkers at the watch towers means they arent at your base protecting against banshee harassment which is a possibility. 2 probes giving great vision isnt that much of a sacrifice imo. But yea I chose too many tech paths and wasnt very decisive since this was the first time ive seen someone do this on 2 bases instead of 1.
I know about going fast colossus vs the one base version but I havent seemed to get them out in time, because you have to wait for your obs to get intel so you choose the right tech path.. although I guess i could start the robo bay and just cancel it if the obs sees something else.
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Ok if u have a army composition of stalker colossi, its important to know when the terran moves out! Then dont wait till he arrives at ur base. Surprise him on the open field, so he is forced to set the Pdd and to siege. So if he put pdd pull back, then attack again when he is moving forward.
But if u wait till the terran arrives at your base then u cant walk away from the pdd because u have no way to move and u will lost!
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EPT
