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I am new to the forums so here goes nothing. I just recently switched to terran and used to be zerg (diamond level). Im doing fairly well but something has come to my attention. The ghost has begun to be used in TvP basically every game. In TvZ more people are gunning for the ghost because of EMPs on the infestors, or snipe on the brood lords. And in TvT there are those ghost rushes but after those no one uses the ghost. Lets just say it has a lot of 'untapped' potential. We do not see people stretch that 100 mineral 100 gas nuke. Sure the ghost has the EMP aspect, and that is very important. But i want to know why we do not go for the nuke. Just think about it:
-Nukes are hard to find. Just the fact that the player is moving around looking at his army and all of his bases is giving you, the terran nuker, some free time.
-Nukes are troublesome when found. Say he does not have spore crawlers, or any for mof detection. He cant kill the ghost. What can he do? He can move his army sure. But if the nuke is on a new expansion, about to hit ~30 drones, probes, or SCVs, what can he do but move them? He can lose 30 workers which is a big win for the terran, or he can pull workers off of minerals and vespene gas and waste mining time. Start nuking each base, and you cant go out and take your third or fourth. You WILL be ahead!
I know, i know, some strategies do not need a ghost to win the game. That's fine, I am fine with that. I am cool with that. The big question here would be about why people dont throw down a tech lab, grab a ghost with cloak and a nuke, then go nuke a base. Worse case scenario he loses A LOT of mining time. I want to know what people think of the nuke. It seems really good to me. Keeps the enemy on his toes.
So the nuke. What do YOU think?
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I read this post in some sort of car salesman voice.
I think the nuke will enter the picture with the meta-game changing towards the direction it's changing in. I'd say it shouldn't be a core part of your plan, but still be a viable after-thought if the opportunity presents itself.
Essentially: You shouldn't aim for the nuke, but you simultaneously shouldn't completely ignore the potential therein.
Also the fact that it catches people so off-guard is huge. I've lost units in stupid ways because I've been nuked out of nowhere while a push was going on, and I had to focus on the fight instead of scouring my bases for a little red dot.
The trouble is making it cost-effective, because you have to either use it:
A) as a catalyst to get something rolling. (i.e.: it's how you initialize a push, or what buys you time while you expand)
B) to do Terrible terrible damage
C) to control space during an engagement (making it cost-effective by essentially saving you from losing an otherwise dead-meat army, by buying them time to retreat by nuking into a choke, etc.)
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Super late game it's a nice form of harassment, and in TvT it can be used in cute tactical ways to gain ground, that's about it. Otherwise, your money is generally better spent on other things. Plenty of marathon games on Tal'Darim with all expos taken see a fair bit of nuking at far-away expos though. Won't be like a mid-game nuke build or anything, I think.
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their expensive to get to and in tvz and tvp i'd not a big fan of them because when they here a nuke they will pull all probes and move their army and you will waist a large investment(remember the teching to them is an investment in itself--ghost cloak, the ghost, the academy and the nuke--add that up and you start needing to do alot of damage).However i think nukes should be used in TvT since its such a positioning battle and nuking his units is a great way to force him to give up a location which is so essential in TvT. That said it is a very expensive investment which is extremely gas heavy so your seige tank count will be very low so i'm not sure it's worth it even here
I'm not a big fan of nuking mineral lines because A. he will pull workers so you will do 0 damage and waist gas which could be used elsewhere B. its very easy to lose the ghost since you have to get it there without being seen by detectors or just the ripple on the screen.
-It's a big investment
But if the nuke is on a new expansion, about to hit ~30 drones, probes, or SCVs, what can he do but move them? He can lose 30 workers which is a big win for the terran, or he can pull workers off of minerals and vespene gas and waste mining time.
--not a good argument the ghost is 150,150 and the nuke is 100,100. If he pulls the workers just the cost of the nuke alone puts him at an eco advantage since a nuke takes 20 seconds to drop.
--remember that the money invested into this harassment is taken from your army as well and that will add up and you'll find yourself behind in the food count very quickly
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I don't see how it is difficult to make nukes cost-effective.
If a Terran player has already invested into using Ghosts for the purpose of EMP and snipes, the extra resources required for a nuke is relatively low. You might want to research cloak as well, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary.
A Terran player who is using ghosts will mix them in with the army. Having a nuke up your sleeve will be great even if you have no idea how/when you will use it. In that case, you won't really need cloak since you have your entire army surrounding your ghost.
Of course, if you plan to do any sneaky nukes cloak will be crucial. In that case, making nukes cost effective will be a challenge. Investing in Ghosts solely for the purpose of nuking is a pretty bad strategy.
I think keeping a nuke handy as a wild-card is the best option.
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I can see them having much potential. Definitely something to look forward to 
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I agree with the above poster. If you already have ghosts, and you're in the late-mid-game/late game, why not just spend 100/100 on a nuke? You never know when the opportunity will arise when it'll be useful. Nuke his retreat path, nuke your retreat path so he won't follow, nuke his mining bases, nuke his this, that, or the other! In a big 'ol positional macro fest, 100/100 is a small investment, and you might use it to pay dividends
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Similar reason as to why Overseers aren't used commonly.
They are gas intensive and take a lot of time to manage, while also usually giving you not much reward.
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Most people have the idea that the nuke has to do massive damage to the opponent's mineral line or towards its army. But I feel that in most TvP's and TvZ, if you are able to sneak into their main base, targeting the supply depots or pylons would result in a better result. Even if the opponent sees the red dot, he wouldnt be able to react to it even if he wanted to.
Another idea of nuking in TvT would be to target the add ons, most production buildings are grouped near each other, and one nuke could possibly kill 2-3 add-ons.
I feel that nukes are better used in a guarenteed damage sort of way than a getting lucky in one shot kind of way.
(Sorry my english isnt that good) ><
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Nukes are ridiculously cost effective, I'm not sure why they aren't used more. If a nuke only kills 2 measly Stalkers, it puts the Terran ahead by 150 minerals.
There's no excuse for not using nukes in a TvP that goes past 20 minutes, they are so powerful for such a tiny investment.
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TvZ strat:
IF you're up against a 5 base zerg, buy 5 ghost academies, 5 ghosts, cloak, and 5 nukes.
Go to each of their bases and set a nuke at their worker line. Will they realise it's more than one nuke? Doubt it. Boom, bang, drones die, you win.
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Well, there was a guy some time ago who posted a guide on how to break siege lines with nukes on late game TvT. (I have seen TLO do this to break siege lines as well)
He nuked right out of the enemy siege tank range and put his opponent in a terribly diffucult situation:
a) Opponent unsieges and tries to flee. Then, he cancels the nuke and attacks while his opponent is unsieged (with a more marauder heavy bio than you normally would have)
b) Opponent stays there (lol)
c) Opponent tries to move in to kill the ghost. Then, he simply falls into your siege line and gets annihilated. Even if he gets the ghost you are far better in the army trade.
Nukes have their place. Bomber vs Moon showed that it can be a constant and viable harassment option when your money is floating above 100/100 at late game. The stress of finding 1 little red dot at your 6 bases, whie the enemy army is moving is definately worth the 100/100. You just give your opponent the chance to fail really hard. And if he doesn't he has wasted apm, mining time or lost a great siege/concave position.
The problem as someone above posted is that it requires you to be creative, spend apm, micro and all that stuff. Just as overseers underused while, they are the best scout in the game but actually require micro/apm to use (since scan is cast--see--forget and observers are invisible so they are cast and forget as well).
I agree with the nuke usage, it can go from being cute and loosing with a smile to completely devastating your opponent's army/economy. And noone should dare say that 100/100 is a big cost, since your ghosts are already on the field and you ARE GONNA BE OVER 100/100, no matter how awesome you think your macro is. Of course if you are talking about a nuke rush, then the cost is meaningful, but i am talking avout no rushes here, only late game.
Happy Nuking!!
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On June 26 2011 17:14 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
TvZ strat:
IF you're up against a 5 base zerg, buy 5 ghost academies, 5 ghosts, cloak, and 5 nukes.
Go to each of their bases and set a nuke at their worker line. Will they realise it's more than one nuke? Doubt it. Boom, bang, drones die, you win.
Why stop at 5? A better idea is to make 10 ghost academies with 10 ghosts cloak and 10 nukes to guarantee that you'll do damage to the zerg.
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On June 26 2011 17:47 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 17:14 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
TvZ strat:
IF you're up against a 5 base zerg, buy 5 ghost academies, 5 ghosts, cloak, and 5 nukes.
Go to each of their bases and set a nuke at their worker line. Will they realise it's more than one nuke? Doubt it. Boom, bang, drones die, you win. Why stop at 5? A better idea is to make 10 ghost academies with 10 ghosts cloak and 10 nukes to guarantee that you'll do damage to the zerg.
Between that much resources invested, theres a fairly good chance that even if the zerg loses one or two bases worth of drones that he will simply all-in you, and having invested so much money into the ghosts theres a fair chance you wont be able to hold it.
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Maybe for TvZ late-game? using nukes to kill larvae? That would be pretty useful.
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While I agree that nukes are underused, you have to realize that Terran is risking more than 100/100.
What if the ghost dies before the nuke goes off? That's 300/200. If it went there in a medivac, that's another 100/100 bringing the total to 400/300. Not to mention that if he does, by chance, have detection, then you won't be doing any damage at all.
The one thing that bothers me about nuke play is I've seen good players, so many times, simply constantly try to nuke expansions when as a previous poster stated you can go for supply depots (often times 1000 minerals+ worth of damage) or pylon/warpgates (though that takes 2 nukes.) These are things that your opponent -have- to rebuild and the cost of doing so generally outweighs what you would get even if the opponent didn't pull workers simply because of the sim city that people tend to work towards in late game.
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On June 26 2011 17:55 Thraundil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 17:47 guitarizt wrote:On June 26 2011 17:14 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
TvZ strat:
IF you're up against a 5 base zerg, buy 5 ghost academies, 5 ghosts, cloak, and 5 nukes.
Go to each of their bases and set a nuke at their worker line. Will they realise it's more than one nuke? Doubt it. Boom, bang, drones die, you win. Why stop at 5? A better idea is to make 10 ghost academies with 10 ghosts cloak and 10 nukes to guarantee that you'll do damage to the zerg. Between that much resources invested, theres a fairly good chance that even if the zerg loses one or two bases worth of drones that he will simply all-in you, and having invested so much money into the ghosts theres a fair chance you wont be able to hold it.
I think he is trolling you.
Anyway, I personally use Nukes whenever my strategy involves Ghosts in some parts of the game.
TvP:
After my 3rd base, I get Ghosts for EMP anyway and most likely get the energy upgrade and Cloak. The Academy is going to be idle after those so why not start Nuking? If the Protoss has a Pylon cluster, which he most likely won't, you might win the game there. You can also force the opposing army to move out of position.
TvZ:
The Zerg gets Infestors, I get Ghosts as a response. Again, why not get Nukes to assist my mid-lategame harass. It's not as effective as drops are, but when it's used alongside drops, it's much better.
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The vast majority of players can spend your APM in much more useful ways.
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TvZ strat:
IF you're up against a 5 base zerg, buy 5 ghost academies, 5 ghosts, cloak, and 5 nukes.
Go to each of their bases and set a nuke at their worker line. Will they realize it's more than one nuke? Doubt it. Boom, bang, drones die, you win.
Please don't do this, you can hear each nuke going off so they will know to pull all drones, then you will have wasted 500 gas and 500 minerals only to do damage to the hatch and it won't even kill it (it'll even regen over time). This is relaying on your opponent just being a bad player
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Every once in a while I play a TvT where the other guy uses lots of nukes. You're right, they can be aggravating and sometimes devastating. One thing I always notice, though, is that they never have a whole lot of stuff, as in economy, other units, etc. I think ghosts are just too much of an investment and if your opponent does deal with them well, you just can't keep up.
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EPT
