EPT[Q] We aren't using Nukes in every matchup? - Page 2
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Phoose
Germany23 Posts
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Mali__Slon
Senegal163 Posts
On June 26 2011 19:23 Phoose wrote: i think if a zerg goes Roach heavy, i mean SLOW, a ghost / nuke is good when he want to max the roach count, you can attack the 3rd and nuke the natural, and of course, if he moves worker why aren't Hellions waiting for them ? Cool, so you have ghost with nukes, hellions with BF even, and you have killed all the drones at natural. And then when zerg moves his big roach army, u stop him with...? You die. When harassing with nukes you need to think - If i am investing my money into this, what am i skipping on? Can I harass, and not get killed afterwards? Too many people harass, harass destroy most of opponents economy, and just get killed, because they invested so much. | ||
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Flix
Belgium114 Posts
On June 26 2011 17:14 ProxyKnoxy wrote: TvZ strat: IF you're up against a 5 base zerg, buy 5 ghost academies, 5 ghosts, cloak, and 5 nukes. Go to each of their bases and set a nuke at their worker line. Will they realise it's more than one nuke? Doubt it. Boom, bang, drones die, you win. Although the idea sounds great/funny (heck why not?) you do undertsand that most zergs will detect this coming and realize the amount of apm and time you spent on this, they might lose drones at one or two bases but I would dread the counter coming and the fact that your main army would probably not be positioned properly in time. Sounds like just one heck of a lucky shot to me. | ||
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DrLOAC
United States53 Posts
Funny I had the same thought a week or two ago. I think nukes are going to be used more often as ghost use increases. With the decrease in gas required it's easier to get them and by mid-game an extra 100/100 shouldn't be hard to swing. As long as you are careful in how you target the nuke it can be very cost effective. | ||
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Geordie
United Kingdom653 Posts
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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DrLOAC
United States53 Posts
On June 26 2011 22:51 Geordie wrote: It puzzles me how people say that nukes are so effective to make ground in TVT, the chances of the guy not having the energy for a scan is minute and nukes are a big investment. Essentialy, any time that somebody tries to do cute nuke stuff against me I just scan and he has lost alot of minerals and gas, for no reward. If your opponent is using a nuke where all it requires is a scan to kill the ghost then he's using the nuke wrong IMHO. To successfully drop a nuke you have to protect the ghost and/or maneuver your opponent into being hit. | ||
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
After doing a hellion run-by at a couple of his expansions, I used nukes to gradually push his tank line back into his natural. I sieged up at his gold after that (while holding the middle) and then just pushed my forces around the side into his third to kill off the game. Even landed a couple of nukes on the expansion while he was trying to fend it off (somehow, the nukes didn't one shot the tanks :[ ) I'll upload the replay for you if want, just fire me a PM. | ||
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DuckS
United States845 Posts
also, did the three g's in the OP hurt anyone elses eyes? ^^; | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
The average base mines about 14 minerals/sec and 3.6 gas/sec. Assuming your opponent spots the nuke dot and pulls his workers for 20 sec, you've inflicted 280 minerals and 72 gas of economic damage. Which is pretty good compared to the 100/100 cost of the nuke, as long as you can save the ghost. Its a good way to increase the military power of army when you're already maxed at 200/200. Of course much like killing mules, causing your opponent to pull workers is not "real" economic damage because you're simply delaying your opponent from getting those resources. They won't have those resources right now, but their base will last 20 sec longer before it mines out. Nuking mineral lines is nice in TvT and TvZ because nukes will one shot refineries and extractors, unlike assimilators. Assuming your opponent rebuilds the refinery/extractor right away (10+30 sec) the nuke will inflict an additional 75 minerals and 72 gas of economic damage. Then you're looking at 355 minerals and 147 gas of damage compared to the 300/200 of the ghost+nuke even if the ghost dies afterwards. And if you can save the ghost then you definitely win. The problem with ghosts in TvT is that detection is so easy with scan. You can mitigate this by EMPing orbitals, but chances are pretty good your opponent will have a scan from another orbital before the nuke hits. So if you can surprise them with EMP+Personal Cloaking its a cute gimmick that might work once per game but not more than that. Another thing to consider about nukes in TvZ is that nuking a hatchery will also kill all the eggs and larvae there. All zerg units have a spawn time > 20 sec, so you can just camp the base with your ghost and the instant you see the opponent morph larvae to eggs launch the nuke. When it hits all those eggs will be killed. Another trick is to watch the opponents spawn larvae timing; if you start to Nuke after the spawn larvae reaches the halfway point, your Nuke will hit immediately after the 4 larvae pop. Also remember that larvae count as units. Even if your opponent pulls drones and you don't think you can land a nuke, you can still snipe larvae. I don't think Nukes are very good in TvP because Protoss buildings have such high health and they can quickly warp in stuff to kill your ghost. If the P simcities poorly and clumps up a bunch of pylons or cannons it can be cost effective, but you never want to depend upon your opponent being bad. Another thing to consider with ghosts is that they have a sight range of 11, which is exactly the same range as all detectors. So if you can see a detector with your ghost, you know they can see through your cloak. So the opposite is true; if the detector is out of your field of vision then they can't see through your cloak. So if you're going to nuke a missile turret or something, make sure to dip back slightly out of sight range before nuking it. | ||
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
If you nuke a mineral line and a fully saturated probe line runs for 20 seconds that is 224 lost minerals and about 76 gas. If you nuke a 2 pylons (500 damage will knock them out) that is 200 lost resources, plus supply blockage (maybe), plus tech blockage (maybe) for merely 100/100. Backed with a mule economy for terrain I don't see this as a bad trade. Nuking gateways IMO is kind of dumb...they only cost 150, are quick to rebuild and they take two nukes to finish. Unless you get can 2 for 1 deals... Nexus takes 4 nukes (minus emps or prior damage) which for 400m/400g to take down a 400/0 structure but does 228 gas per minute...that could be worth it. Think the key for terrain is to bring multiple ghosts so they can do multiple nukes at once. Other nice thing about nukes is that they can be used like forcefields. If you don't want to protoss player X in area z (could be your choke, your retreat path, etc)...just lay down a nuke and cancel it if need be. Your army can probably easily do 100m/100g worth of damage to pay for itself or could save 100m/100g worth of units by keeping the protoss army away. Interesting PvT game in which HD did that featured 40 nukes that I think is from MLG: | ||
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Gibbo
Poland7 Posts
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
But damn, Ghosts work better and better the later a game goes. You launch a nuke super lategame, now your opponent is busy trying to find out where it is, and he will eventually use more effort trying to protect himself from the nuke than the terran who is nuking. Not to mention even if he pulls his workers from the correct base, and doesn't lose any, he will lose way more than the 100/100 (resource and time wise) that was needed for the nuke just from lost mining time. | ||
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
Iplayforfood was vastly ahead and had a viking/raven/battlecruiser 3-3 upgraded maxed army, trump had unupgraded marines, a couple ghosts, and had begun pumping vikings from two reactor starports. Each player had two mining bases, the rest of the bases on the map were mined out. Trump put down four more ghost academies for constant nukes and began to nuke the mineral line of food at each of his two bases over and over while making vikings and marines and pushing back the battlecruisers. Food was basically broke and had no income. While the nukes were costly for trump, he still had some income left over to keep producing units, putting him closer and closer to the lead each second that passed. Soon trump was able to kill food's battlecruiserravenviking ball and he made an absolutely crazy comeback. | ||
Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
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