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Hello guys.
I listened to the last episode of state of the game and there was this little balance discussion going on between IdrA and Day[9]. IdrA mentioned that at least one of the two following statements has to be true:
-) You are able to scout anything what your opponent is doing
-) You have an all purpose build that is able to fend off everything
In my opinion this makes perfect sense, but neither of those two is the case right now. IdrA already suggested making overlord speed hatch tech with reduced costs, which would satisfy statement one.
But IdrA got me thinking about his second statement; he mentioned that in brood war sunken colonies built faster compared to spine crawlers since you could get a manner creep colony so you were safe against more stuff without needing that perfect scouting.
So this got me thinking. How about an equivalent of the Creep Colony in SC2? A creep colony has following advantages:
-) You don't have to fully commit, since you can pay half-half
-) You can react faster in case you already got a creep colony down
This solves the issue of satisfying one of those two statements in an other way. What do you think?
edit: A simple reduction of the spine crawler build time does not work, because it would ruin ZvZ. Early pool builds would be just too good and a must in that matchup. It also doesn't adress the issue of needing a spore crawler faster against DTs or banshees etc.
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Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique?
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On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique?
They are not meant to spread creep. They are meant to let you react faster. Let's say a spine crawler builds 50 seconds (dunno if thats true), so you could make the creep colony 30 seconds and the morphing to the spine crawler would take 20 seconds then.
Now imagine you don't know what you're up to, so you lay down a creep colony. Then you see marines or whatever coming to your base; 20 seconds is enough to morph it to what you need it for. Same goes with banshees and morphing to spore crawlers.
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On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique?
Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies 
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Canada13411 Posts
On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique?
Perhaps we should think of ways to incorporate creep tumors into the concept of aiding in static defense. Perhaps a drone will create a spine or spore crawler faster if they are built where a creep tumor currently lies?
Its just a suggestion because I agree spine crawlers take a long time to root and move when trying to prepare a defense.
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On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies
I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good.
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Since creep tumors already fulfill the role of the creep colony I think it would be a waste. Especially since you would have to sacrifice a drone to make a building that you may or may not use.
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
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On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good.
Curious as to why you think spines/spores are better in sc2. Could you elaborate other than uproot? Personally I would trade uproot for creep colonies if presented the choice. Sunkens seemed much more durable in bw because in sc2 there are a number of units that absolutely destroy buildings, not to mention these units get massed like crazy. It makes spines not very effective.
Also how come spines dont produce broodlings like all other buildings. I think it would be better if they produce like 3 broodlings when destroyed.
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On May 10 2011 04:55 TreDawg wrote:
Since creep tumors already fulfill the role of the creep colony I think it would be a waste. Especially since you would have to sacrifice a drone to make a building that you may or may not use.
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
If you paid attention to what any top Zerg has said about the Spanishiwa build, youd realize it isn't an end all or solve all to the problems proposed by Idra or anyone else.
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On May 10 2011 04:55 TreDawg wrote:
Since creep tumors already fulfill the role of the creep colony I think it would be a waste. Especially since you would have to sacrifice a drone to make a building that you may or may not use.
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
According to IdrA it loses to greedy builds. I haven't tried it out yet, though.
greedy>safe>aggressive>greedy
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On May 10 2011 04:55 TreDawg wrote:
Since creep tumors already fulfill the role of the creep colony I think it would be a waste. Especially since you would have to sacrifice a drone to make a building that you may or may not use.
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
Its immobile, if the terran/protoss know your doing it they can do 1 rax fe/ 1 gate/fe and there's nothing you can do about it. They can take their third faster then you can on most of the ladder maps. Spanishiwa style is good for lower level play but at high level play there are many glaring weaknesses that good players will exploit. No threat of an all in or pressure = no need too make unnecessary defenses or anything you can do what you want and not have too worry about it.
The person who suggested spine crawlers making faster on creep tumors, that is an awesome idea wish blizzard would do that :D.
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might be a manner creep colony if you build it in another zergs base, but i'd call this one an emergency creep colony
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On May 10 2011 04:56 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good. Curious as to why you think spines/spores are better in sc2. Could you elaborate other than uproot? Personally I would trade uproot for creep colonies if presented the choice. Sunkens seemed much more durable in bw because in sc2 there are a number of units that absolutely destroy buildings, not to mention these units get massed like crazy. It makes spines not very effective.
they take forever to root themselves.
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On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good.
the problem is the build times. They simply take too long to be reactionary.
On May 10 2011 04:55 TreDawg wrote:
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
you cannot use the queens to be aggressive. you force yourself into a very safe defensive position, but if they can almost double fast expand if you do it.
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On May 10 2011 04:51 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:49 R0YAL wrote:On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Creep colonies morphed into either a sunken colony or spore colony. It made it so that you could throw down a few creep colonies and quickly morph them into sunkens when desired. It makes Zerg much more flexible, I miss my creep colonies I played Zerg in BW, thanks. Spine/Spores are better in SC2 than 1, and the ability to move them around is already really good.
Really don't understand this reasoning. Spores I don't really care about but spines are terrible compared to sunks. They take way too long to make in SC2 and they seem weaker too.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Blizzard must add Creep Colony (without upgrades) as better creep generator (hatchery radius).
It can be built from Drone and cost something, like 150-1200 minerals.
Will be good, if zerg will have something, like bigger creep generator.
And we must have Neutral Crawler, that too can uproot and can be upgraded to Spore Crawler or Spine crawler.
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They were in the game at one point and removed. I think they could make sense if they could move and root faster than the spine and spore. Then you could pre-build them and move them around to where they were needed before committing completely to static defense. Maybe in HOTS.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OUxDQ.jpg) (from here)
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On May 10 2011 04:50 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:45 MangoTango wrote:
Creep tumors already took over the role of spreading creep. What would Creep Colonies do that's unique? Perhaps we should think of ways to incorporate creep tumors into the concept of aiding in static defense. Perhaps a drone will create a spine or spore crawler faster if they are built where a creep tumor currently lies? Its just a suggestion because I agree spine crawlers take a long time to root and move when trying to prepare a defense.
This is a very interesting idea. Or maybe just allow a creep tumor to morph into a Spine Crawler for an increased cost in favor of not losing a drone and a lower build time.
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On May 10 2011 04:55 TreDawg wrote:
Since creep tumors already fulfill the role of the creep colony I think it would be a waste. Especially since you would have to sacrifice a drone to make a building that you may or may not use.
I still don't see how the Spanishiwa build doesn't count as an all purpose defensive build.
Hes talking about creep colonys in Broodwar, which you just built and could then morph it into a Sunken (ground) or Spore (air) defense.
Spanishiwas build maybe defends all kinds of early cheese, but if your opponent is intelligent, he will notice that you cant pressure him with no gas. So he expands/techs and ends up ahead of you.
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One thing about creep colonies - you can't always make them expecting to use them in both situations.
You wouldn't put a creep colony up front thinking to make it into a spore colony. You wouldn't put a sunken at the back of your base (usually anyways). Creep colonies gave you head starts in getting a sunken down against a push, but did cost money up front and may end up not being useful. Is this a possible solution to spines? Have an intermediate phase that costs about half of the spine/spore crawler? Maybe.
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EPT
