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Hey, guys.
My friend and I were talking about this last night after watching Destiny answer some questions on Reddit (I wanna be a pro, how much do you make, how do I join ROOT, etc. etc.) and it got me to wondering - how much of a given person's success in SC2 can be attributed to a natural affinity for the game or for video games in general?
I say none, my friend says a lot. His argument is that SC2 is just like any other sport. Nearly all of the players in the NHL, NFL, MLB, etc., got to that league through a combination of favorable circumstances, loads of practice, and natural skill. However, SC2 is different in that one's physical qualities have almost no bearing on gameplay - the exception would be hand speed and reflexes, which, in my opinion, can be trained.
My stance (and Destiny's, from what I could tell) is that even the lowliest Bronze player could theoretically make it to the GSL one day, with a metric fuckton of work and a lot of dedication. Look at Koreans, for instance. Koreans are typically better at SC2 for one of two possible reasons. The first is that Koreans are just born with a Gauss rifle in their hands and are veritable SC gods from the moment they exit the womb; the other is that Korean family values tend to stress hard work and dedication much more than the typical American family does, and Koreans therefore just work much harder at the game.
What do you guys think? If you're high Diamond or Masters, do you think you've worked enough to deserve it, or do you think you were just "born that way"?
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I think the way your mind works and how you think takes place of those 'physical' or athletic attributes that you get in other sports (height for basketball, etc.) seeing SC2 is hardly just about the execution.
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There is a reason why some people are just clumpsy and some not. Sure you can train your reflexes but there is definatly a part genetic in that as well. And that's not even taking into account the strategy part of the game. It doesn't matter if you have the best hand speed and reflexes if you are just dumb.
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I think it's all trained in my opinion. But it's a very philosophical question, and it's already been discussed to death.
I dont think you can just train by playing the game, you'll need to have the right mindset and practice in the correct way. But if you do all this perfectly, then yes i do think that anyone can become GSL champion. There are a billion factors, but i dont really think that "natural skill" is one of them.
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I think natural skill comes into play when you are at the highest level and mechanics and game understanding is near perfect. You don't need to have any kind of natural talent to be like best sc2 players at the moment.
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This is kind of like the nature vs nurture debate. I like to think that some people naturally have a knack for gaming and that others just learn through playing a lot more. The pros probably have a combination of having natural talent coupled with many hours of practise.
As a side, I also think that general intelligence has a factor in it too since Starcraft requires learning hotkeys, builds, timings, decision making, rational thinking and multitasking.
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+ Show Spoiler +I think the skill came from playing games since I was like 3 and getting free lives for my dad in super mario. After not playing the beta and not playing sc:bw or any other RTS competitively + Show Spoiler +I played fastest map on sc:bw.. not even BGH and the triumph of my sc:bw career was a game where I built enough cannons all throughout my base to last long enough to clean up everyone else with carriers.. lol
as for other RTSes I played red alert and rise of nations offline.. not much to say there I initially placed into gold and got into diamond after 8 days of playing. The one thing I kept in my mind going into every game is that I have to be doing SOMETHING. That something was 4gating.. mind you I hadn't even found TL yet. Anyhoo I eventually found out 4gating is cheese (even in pvp at the time) but when I switched strategies I didn't get demoted or anything. Then I switched to zerg and went 14 gas/14pool muta every ZvT and ZvP and then 14gas/14pool speedling and still didnt get demoted and here I am today
TL;DR
0 RTS experience >> Bought game>>Placed into gold and went up to diamond 8 days later through 4gate>>Stopped 4gating>> Currently http://sc2ranks.com/us/339206/Alex
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Mental abilities related to playing starcraft are just as important as physical abilities in relation to sports. Some have them, others don't.
Take a look at those bronze players with >500 games played.
Now look how many games it took you to get to your league.
There you have it.
Edit : Wow, I could have written the EXACT same post as the guy above me. BGH fa$$$ste$$t, 4 gating, stoping 4 gating not getting demoted. ^
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I think it's mostly practice, but like deL said, the way you learn or teach yourself strategies can play a huge factor in your training. As we know, some people are better learners than others, as well as better innovators. And in SC, meta game and sneaky timings have to be a part of training as well.
But Overall, its not only practice practice practice, but how you practice... with a touch of "natural" talent in the form of mental abilities.
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Talent is essentially the ability to do things right the first time without having someone show you. Talent without hard work to develop is wasted. On the flip-side, with enough practice anyone with basic aptitude can become very good.
People underestimate how much dedicated practice time is required to become an expert though.
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I would argue that, like other sports, a natural ability and affinity plays a role but that hard work and practicing a lot and practicing the right way can, to a certain extent mitigate natural ability or a lack thereof.
Basically, while, yes, theoretically if they work hard enough anyone can get into and compete at the top level tournaments and possibly win them. However, for some people, it is going to take significantly more work than others. Some people just have a natural affinity for video games in general or strategy games in particular. To these people, this sort of thing comes much more naturally than to others.
Skill at both regular sports and Starcraft is a combination of hard work and natural ability. Instead of natural athleticism, except for reflexes and hand-eye coordination, mental ability, a certain mode of thinking acts as a replacement. Some peoples brains just work the right way, other people have to train their minds to operate in the correct thought process.
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On March 21 2011 22:28 Geiko wrote:
Mental abilities related to playing starcraft are just as important as physical abilities in relation to sports. Some have them, others don't.
Take a look at those bronze players with >500 games played.
Now look how many games it took you to get to your league.
There you have it.
I see what you mean, but I also want to point out that a lot of those Bronze players with a ton of games played either want to be there or aren't making a significant effort to get out.
I've seen Bronze leaguers QQing about imbalance and how it's impossible to get out of Bronze/Silver; meanwhile, they've never watched a single one of their replays or spent any time trying to refine their build order. Some people just go about the act of improving in the wrong way.
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i think that most of us, if put in the oGs house for example, could become code S material. it will just take such epic amounts of playing time it will make you wanna curl up like a baby and cry for mommy
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On March 21 2011 22:28 Geiko wrote:Take a look at those bronze players with >500 games played.
Now look how many games it took you to get to your league.
the number of games played has nothing to do with it. people can be in bronze after 500 games because they don't care much about the game or because they don't know (and don't want to know) what they made wrong.
I think everybody could get into higher masters rank without any problems (given that he/she invests enough time and effort into it). The best players in the world might need some natural skill
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Big difference is that those prosports have generations of knowledge/training to draw upon. There are 100000000s of talented junior athletes worldwide, hard work is necessary but youre sure as hell not going to be a pro athlete by willpower alone (generally - I know there are exceptions)
I feel that because SC (rts games in general) are so new in their development that hard work to nail the basics really can get you far, because collectively even the best players are not at their optimum.
Probably gonna cop alot of flak for this but IdrA is a good example - lets face it his gamesense or w/e you want to call it is average, but he is a macro machine due to hours upon hours of practicing builds, rotations of inject/creep/drone/produce etc. But he survives for now as this is enough to put him streets ahead of players who do not have this mechanical base
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While some are gifted, one of the most important things is the "skill" to train and practice, having the abillity to train alot without loosing motivation and getting much out of it.
If you are good but can't motivate yourself your gonna be stomped by a 'normal' player with tons of dedication. And I say again as we have discussed this in alot of threads, asian culture some how spawns dedication in people so that when they take on a task, they are really doing all in thier power to preform very well.
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As a high masters player on a pro team, I think literally anyone can atleast get in to masters, it's all about your mind set and how much work you put in to it.
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On March 21 2011 22:33 Geolich wrote:
Big difference is that those prosports have generations of knowledge/training to draw upon. There are 100000000s of talented junior athletes worldwide, hard work is necessary but youre sure as hell not going to be a pro athlete by willpower alone (generally - I know there are exceptions)
I feel that because SC (rts games in general) are so new in their development that hard work to nail the basics really can get you far, because collectively even the best players are not at their optimum.
Probably gonna cop alot of flak for this but IdrA is a good example - lets face it his gamesense or w/e you want to call it is average, but he is a macro machine due to hours upon hours of practicing builds, rotations of inject/creep/drone/produce etc. But he survives for now as this is enough to put him streets ahead of players who do not have this mechanical base
I absolutely, absolutely, absolutely agree with your point about IdrA, and I've been saying it for ages. It is evident in his play that his success is a result of hours upon hours of practice - that's why his timings, macro, and micro are often nigh-impeccable, while his "Achille's heel" tends to often be his decision making.
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It's the same as any game, if two people put in equal amounts of work, the more talented player wins. A talented player who doesn't practice a lot can still compete with an untalented player who puts in moderate amounts of work, while that same talented person can't compete with someone who practices like a progamer.
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You need a basic level of intelligence for understanding the game and being able to think yourself into the opponents position.
Everything else is a matter of practice.
For example, you might become a very good Player by just executing stuff, but without being smart you won't be able to become a top player.
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EPT
