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Welcome to all the cheese lovers, cheese haters, and cheese deniers. Let's have a constructive discussion about whether or not cheese is a worthwhile concept to have in the StarCraft meta-game. Please direct all flames and non-constructive rants to the B-net forums.
First, let's get some fun polls out of the way, and test your reading comprehension...
Poll: Does 'Cheese' exist in games?Yes -- Cheese does exist (64) 89% No -- Cheese does not exist (8) 11% 72 total votes Your vote: Does 'Cheese' exist in games? (Vote): Yes -- Cheese does exist
(Vote): No -- Cheese does not exist
Now, if you voted YES on the first poll, please take this poll...
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: What 1v1 league are you in?High diamond (~1600-2000) (22) 37% Mid diamond (~1200-1600) (12) 20% Top diamond (2000+) (8) 14% Platinum (6) 10% Gold (4) 7% Bronze (3) 5% Low diamond (1200-) (2) 3% Silver (2) 3% Unranked (0) 0% 59 total votes Your vote: What 1v1 league are you in? (Vote): Top diamond (2000+)
(Vote): High diamond (~1600-2000)
(Vote): Mid diamond (~1200-1600)
(Vote): Low diamond (1200-)
(Vote): Platinum
(Vote): Gold
(Vote): Silver
(Vote): Bronze
(Vote): Unranked
Now, if you voted NO on the first poll, please take this poll...
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: When someone on TL screams, "Cheese!" You think...The phrase has no indication of their skill. (7) 64% They must be a baddie. (4) 36% 11 total votes Your vote: When someone on TL screams, "Cheese!" You think... (Vote): They must be a baddie.
(Vote): The phrase has no indication of their skill.
According to this article on Street Fighter scrubs, anyone who believes in the concept of cheapness, cheese, or other user defined boundaries, should be restricted in their play and unable to maximize their potential: ARTICLE
I'm not going to provide a long winded rant or rave representing my own opinions, because I'm mostly interested in the opinions of you, the TL community. However, I would recommend anyone who hasn't already read the article linked above -- do so.
So, TL, what do you think about cheese? Should we maintain cheese as a useful concept, or should we shun its use into oblivion? Thanks for taking the time to vote on the polls and adding your voice to the discussion.
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Cheese is fine, learn to play
Edit: Why did you restrict the second poll to people who said "no"? Your poll structure doesn't make sense.
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i'm pretty sure 90% of people on TL have read sirlin...
noone says cheese doesnt exist. thats like saying 4gate doesnt exist. of course it does.
the problem with it is that it allows for the less skilled player to win disproportionately. of course, this has all been discussed to death, so i really dont understand what you want to discuss
also, you misread the article. you arent a scrub for being angry at cheese, you're a scrub if you think cheesy play should be banned. (i.e. no gateways outside of your base, no gateways until after 12 supply, etc.)
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Cheese is fine in the context of discussion as it is merely a descriptive therm for something very cheesy. If you want a high rating and instant bragging rights you will most of the time be doing just that but if your goal is improvement doing cheese is detrimental to your growth as a player.
your quoted article talks about playing to win, cheese is very good in that regard.
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personally, cheese exists, its horrible to lose to, but its integral to the game. cheese can be very powerful, especially if you are known to be a "standard" player who never cheeses..... doing it every now and then can really throw your opponent off.
The opposite can be equally true, a player who always "cheeses", someone like foxer who does that crazy marine play, every now and then changes it up completely and gets an easy win because his opponent gets throw off their game.
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On November 18 2010 05:48 gods_basement wrote:
i'm pretty sure 90% of people on TL have read sirlin...
noone says cheese doesnt exist. thats like saying 4gate doesnt exist. of course it does.
the problem with it is that it allows for the less skilled player to win disproportionately. of course, this has all been discussed to death, so i really dont understand what you want to discuss
also, you misread the article. you arent a scrub for being angry at cheese, you're a scrub if you think cheesy play should be banned. (i.e. no gateways outside of your base, no gateways until after 12 supply, etc.)
"According to this article on Street Fighter scrubs, anyone who believes in the concept of cheapness, cheese, or other user defined boundaries, should be restricted in their play and unable to maximize their potential."
This is the only analysis of the article that I offered, and it is practically verbatim from the article. So, exactly what did I misread?
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I believe cheese exists, but I don't think it should be "shunned into oblivion". Cheese is annoying, yes, but its a valid strategy. If it works, people should do it. I believe that in any competitive activity, all participants should be allowed and expected to do what ever they can (within the rules) to win. That includes cheese. I would even go so far as to say that includes taking advantage of known glitches or other aspects of the game which give an unfair advantage in some situation, as long as you are not hacking the game to do so.
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You didn't really define what "cheese" is, nor whether or not it's an acceptable playstyle. I think everyone has relatively the same definition of cheese, but the details are different. Personally I think it's blatantly obvious that "cheese" does exist in the sense that it's a playstyle that is "extremely strong if not scouted, but can be dealt with using proper scouting and reactions, sometimes being an all-in build." For example, take 6 pool.
Is it a problem? Hell no. Incorporating anti-cheese tactics (such as smart scouting) is fundamental to being a good player, but this is mostly on ladder. What about cheese in tournaments? I love watching cheese in tournaments, because you're basically playing mindgames with your opponent. 6 pooling might be a gamble, it might even lose you a match, but the psychological damage it causes (nervousness, etc) might be worth it to win the next two games.
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"if your style annoys your opponent then your style is good" - Prodigious 7d
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
This doesn't bring anything new to the table, we've all discussed this before.
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EPT
