Now, this isn't totally relevant to the metagame at high levels, because people roam in groups of 5 and everyone just tries to CC the healers and focus down the carries and it's a big mess of AOE and a bunchabullshit, BUT
one of the funnest parts of any game ever is theorycrafting (and testing) which champs could beat the other in a completely maxed item scenario, 1v1, no summoner spells, FINAL DESTINATION.
Ruken initially started this research off a couple months ago and determined that
This was back when siphon strike could be dodged. Jax gave him the most trouble due to being able to dodge siphon, but if repeated today it's almost certain that Jax wouldn't even get close. Wither is just too strong against all these champs. Olaf's passive is great in a real game but doesn't kick in fast enough in a 1v1. Of course, many many different builds were tested just to see. Stack armor, stack armor pen, stack lifesteal, get as much damage as possible, balance your stats, grab a warmog and thornmail for ultimate EHP, etc etc etc.
Today Ruken and I did another test on my claim that XinZhao would wreck Nasus. After farming for 40 minutes to get about 15k gold, we started our builds and the results were pretty interesting.
For any other champ, Bloodrazor didn't seem to have enough of an effect on Nasus to matter. But my theory was that with enough AS xin would be able to keep Q permanently off cooldown and keep Nasus in the air long enough to wittle him down. Xin wouldn't need lifesteal because of imba passive.
The best build for Xin seemed to be Randuins, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Bloodrazor, Malady, Sword of the Divine. Xin's got a total of about 130 AD from this build but nearly 2.5 AS, and over 400 armor. Randuins and Xin's ult are activated at the beginning of the fight to give him survivability, as well as SotD. Q is immediately proc'd to get a fast pop-up, and W is pressed right after to refresh cooldowns. Q is activated as soon as it's off cooldown again and so is W.
Nasus found success with Infinity Edge, Bloodrazor, Triforce, Warmog, Frozen Heart, and Randuins. Banshee was deemed worthless as it could be popped with Xin's E immediately. Popping Nasus's ult will get a Triforce proc, followed by spirit fire and siphon for another proc, as well as wither to try to counteract xin's imba AS (wither absolutely destroys any other champ... Xin's AS even drops to about 0.4 at the last tick, which is disgusting). Both champs triple-potting gives Nasus the advantage, strangely enough. Nasus also won when Xin got Warmogs instead of SotD, and the champs literally broke even (as in, they both killed each other on the last hit) no less than 6 times in our tests with various builds. CDR and minimizing the opponents attack speeds are crucial. Lifesteal is huge on Nasus.
Strangely enough, just as Xin can destroy Nasus or at least hold equal with him, and Nasus clobbers Jax, I hypothesize that Jax would rape Xin, as would Warwick.
Yi hasn't been taken into any considerations, nor has Pirate (do oranges remove wither? that could be huge), but Yi isn't considered a threat, *LOL*.
SO, yeah. I'm down to do tests again another day (requires multiple people farming multiple lanes for about half an hour then meeting at baron and constantly fighting each other and swapping out builds and whatnot), which champs do you guys think are the best late-game carries?
Obviously ranged v melee isn't fair because if the ranged can keep the gap wide, they can kite to win, whereas if the melee can close it (Xin, Yi, Warwick) the ranged doesn't stand a chance. But I'd like to see which ranged could beat which ranged as well (my money's on Kog and Trist).
Hmm, so how farmed is nasus getting before these fights? I've seen Siphon Strikes hitting with 1300+ bonus damage, I doubt Xin would stand a chance against that. Have you tried either against a full AP Sion? Zhonya's 4 Archangels and Lich Bane makes him a tough threat, possibly subbing one AA for a fully maxed mejais will give more AP but at that point he's healing himself for ~800k every lich bane proc while his ult is active and dealing a shit ton of damage during his burst.
Kog vs Trist would be an interesting battle, and I'm fairly certain anyone agai
Nasus had 260 Siphon Strike damage iirc. I mean sure you could give him 6000 Siphon Strike damage and he'd win outright but where's the fun in that? Also Ruken seems to think there's an upper limit to SS damage around 1400 anyways.
Also with Xin having 400 armor and SS being physical damage, it was severely reduced either way.
Haven't tried AP Sion yet, didn't even think of that, but it'd definitely be a good fight. Ofc, Xin would be stacking MR and AS to keep Sion popped up so who knows about that one. Not sure how Nasus would fair against an AP champ either
Interesting. I also did this theorycrafting with a friend.
Are we considering summoner spells? Because wouldn't Nasus get raped if you simply cleansed his wither?
I tested Sion vs Yi with a friend (I didn't use a single ability except my shield but that's worthless anyway, Yi used youmuu's and his ult). That vid shows me with Thornmail and him without though. Also, I farmed a ridiculous amount of minions so I have a lot more health than I should have.
Once Yi got thornmail it was a closer match, but once I used my ultimate with Sion, gaining 125% life steal, it wasn't a match at all.
Personally I think if we're allowed to cleanse CC with summoner spells, Sion could destroy Nasus.
If wither is such a big deal, wouldn't Summoner Cleanse / Quicksilver Sash make sense? Or are you assuming both champions take Cleanse / Exhaust and they cancel each other out?
We did no summoners because like cleanse destroys Nasus but does nothing when facing Yi or Xin, so it's not exactly fair. Only items were used. Merc treads and quiksilver are *nice* to get rid of wither but that is subtracting an entire item slot worth something else that might be more important (100 armor, 50% attack speed, Bloodrazor, etc)
Yeah as far as I'm concerned, regarding your video, Yi is going to get wrecked by everyone. All they need is to prioritize armor or dodge, and he's worthless. He's got no can't-miss skill, and while he's got a fuckton of attack speed and damage, so does everyone else in these scenarios. Meditate gets him killed, alpha strike is lol, so he's already down two abilities whereas everyone else uses all their abilities pretty well.
I'm positive citrus fruits gets rid of the movement slow on Nasus' wither but I'm not 100% sure it gets rid of the attack speed debuff but I think that it does. And GP has a 50% reduction to your lifesteal. GP > Nasus you heard it here first.
Definitely want to try GP and Nasus then. But I'm also pretty positive Jax will beat GP and possibly Xin. Also even after I discounted Yi, I've had a game as Yi where I was super farmed and I let the game go on so I could keep getting kills and their GP eventually got superfarmed as well and we both had essentially the best items you could buy and I still beat him \m/ So I've got Yi > GP too
I think a properly itemized Yi could probably stand a chance:
LW + Black Clever + Ghostblade + Sword of the Divine (makes dodge useless) + Inf. Edge + Bloodrazor would probably be the best damage combo though he might want some other stats like survivability or lifesteal.
I tested Sion vs Yi with a friend (I didn't use a single ability except my shield but that's worthless anyway, Yi used youmuu's and his ult). That vid shows me with Thornmail and him without though. Also, I farmed a ridiculous amount of minions so I have a lot more health than I should have.
Once Yi got thornmail it was a closer match, but once I used my ultimate with Sion, gaining 125% life steal, it wasn't a match at all.
Personally I think if we're allowed to cleanse CC with summoner spells, Sion could destroy Nasus.
Try zerk greaves 4 warmogs atmas on sion for shits and giggles.
On November 10 2010 12:51 gtrsrs wrote: Definitely want to try GP and Nasus then. But I'm also pretty positive Jax will beat GP and possibly Xin. Also even after I discounted Yi, I've had a game as Yi where I was super farmed and I let the game go on so I could keep getting kills and their GP eventually got superfarmed as well and we both had essentially the best items you could buy and I still beat him \m/ So I've got Yi > GP too
Jax beats everything that isn't sion or nasus, mostly because the multiple warmogs+atmas has the potential to instagib. (and by potential I mean unless every autoattack gets dodged, which is not even the case on siphon strike. good times.)
EDIT 3: not sure how warmogs atmas nasus vs warmogs atmas sion would fare, nasus has higher dmg output and wither but sion's lifesteal is enough to completely fill his hp with each hit.
multiple warmogs gets completely outclassed by a single-slot item tho, BloodRazor. in all our testing today we found that adding a warmogs neither helped nor hurt either of us. so many %-based skills make warmogs irrelevant. 4warmog atma especially would be insta death to attackspeed + BR.
EPT
