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This is just based on my experience, and i am sure many of you have had completely different experiences. Also I do not have a replay handy since I am posting this from work.
I am fairly knowledgable about the game. The highest rating I have gotten to before the recent patch was about 2100. These days I play mostly toss. I am good with zerg, but not as good. And I am not great with terran.
I am writing this post because I want to get your opinions and your suggestions about how to deal with PVT. I have been having problems with Terrans in 1v1 who turtle, get tanks, marines, marauders, and vikings. I havn't found any protoss unit combo that will work decently against it. It's driving me nuts, because many times I have played way better than my opponent, but they just sit in their bases and build up these huge armies of bio and tanks and vikings and then roll out and steam roll me. Even with me being able to get expands I just can't beat the unit combo.
My general strat is to hit them fast and hard with 3 or 4 gate pumping stalkers, mabey with blink, build a pylon outside their base so that I can keep warping in as I am attacking. I also like chargelots and sometimes voidray if they are marauder heavy. Immortals seem decent, but only if u have a lot of them. They get taken down by marauders and marines pretty quickly. Collossus are great units, but pretty much useless these days. 3-6 vikings just demolish them. Vikings are driving me nuts with their range and speed.
The general consensus seems to suggest chargelots and high templar, but 1 well placed emp can shut down your HT. and psi storm never seems to do enough damage, they stim and run away and let their tanks blast u.
Please let me know if u think i am crazy or just bad or w/e. But from what I can see there isn't really much Toss can do against this strat. I think the reason that terran is a bit unbalanced right now is that they are harder to play than zerg or toss. This means that lower league people generally steer away from terran and bitch cause they arnt very good with terran. So terran gets buffed in order to get lower league people to play it more often, this unbalances it for the pros though. In my recent 1v1s probably half of the games I play are against terrans. Its driving me nuts to know that I can play better and still lose because their unit composition is a counter to anything that toss can throw at them. Feel free to dis me for whining or not posting replay or w/e. Mabey ill post one later.
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Can I have a replay of this imbalance PvT.. I really need some good strategies versus protoss right now
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Indeed, show me those imba terran strats which you are playing against  .
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I concur with your opinion--for toss to win a fight, it's generally necessary that they contain the enemy forces somehow, be it with FF or some alternative method. The issue with fighting terran mech (tanks/MMM/viking) is that once terran gets a critical number of tanks (5 or 6) it's near impossible to engage them due to the threat of an EMP melt-fest. Because of this issue, toss's only option is to run away and hope that they can wreck the T while they're out of position.
For this reason, I believe that the most optimal way to beat T right now as P is to simply play as if it's SC1--attempt to surround them while their army is moving...take advantage of warpgates and FF to overwhelm them. The only other way I've been beating terran consistently is by going either VR + stalker rush when they go mass marauder or simply a 4gate when they go 111.
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You need reps or this thread will be closed.
For ghosts v templar, try an obs with you and feedback the ghosts--it's micro intensive and just intense but it can work.
Two sort of general things. One, I don't know if you consider pheonixes, but they can protect your collosi from vikings and they can also lift tanks/harass. Second, I'm not sure 4 gate is the best build vT if they don't one rax expand--isn't it more a vZ or vP build? I would check the reps b/c you might be getting behind at the 4 gate push, especially if it's not working out and you're still warping in stuff. It could be a tipping point in the econ game.
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Replay!
Now that that's out of the way - from the terran PoV, you can't get m/m ball AND siege'd tanks AND ghosts AND Vikings/Ravens, until your nat is up and running. Secondly, be sure to position you're HTs smartly, and make sure you can warp new ones (with the +25 energy upgrade) in a safe spot. No matter how I sneak my ghosts around, I can never ever dispose of every HT, and it always comes down to who played the better overall game. Hope it helps.
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My intuition says your economy is too small - generally if an opponent's composition seems unbeatable it's because your army is too small. You might also consider more use of air and/or upgrades.
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in my experience you have to end the game before they get a significant number of tanks and ghosts. once they have 3 ghosts and more than 4 tanks or so, any ground army gets demolished and they won't lose a single unit. try to watch their tanks with an observer and the second they unsiege and start to move out, hit them fast and hopefully they will be out of position allowing blink stalkers to clean them up. if they're smart they will have a viking nearby to scout any observers tho.
i keep theorycrafting in my head that an air army of phoenix and carrier would beat this but i havent tried it cuz protoss air is... yea. but if they turtle its easy to expand and get the resources to build enough carriers so it could work, its just all protoss are too scared to try an air army.
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Do you know what I find most helpful when someone start calling the imbalance? Suggest him to roll the other side and start owning his main race with this so called buletproof strategy. You'll soon discover new ways to play your main when more capable players show you the way.
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Where's the 8 diamond replays?
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Get mothership and do vortex on tanks etc, you get a chance to crush rest of defences + when tanks come out they are out of siege mode.
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As a Terran it seems to me like Protoss plays too little standard 1 one-base play. It's always a rush to tech or something and then I can just walk right in their front door while they are yelling "AMMAGAD MAMARUDERS IMBA". I lost 2 games in diamond leagues, both to Protoss. The first one was against a dude who went mass DT's and there was no way I could scan them all. We ended up wiping eachothers main (plus I got his nat) but he just continued to send out DT's all around and snipe my ravens and then I was boned when I ran out of scans.
The second dude rushed to chargelots. This seemed like a good tactic though I know I could have won, because I was in his base destroying his gateways when I thought I saw DT's and ran like a bitch. There were no DT's only more Zealots. DAMN GRAPHICS CARD!
If you see the Terran massing up a army of one base I really think you should prepare for an attack.
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against the turtle terran its normaly ok to get "some" colossus because they have to decide, vikings or ghost? or tanks or vikings? they cant build "everything"
yeah and dont forget fast DT
sometimes good.. but scout first for ebay. than run into his base, wait for the mule. than attack.
i always lose to terrans that proxy thier first rax and overrun me with marauder... its so much easier to micro 2 marauder, than to micro 1 zealot and 3- 5 probs, until your stalker is out, than micro the lot that hopefully is not dead until that point + stalker + probes against 3marauder with slow rdy...
most of the time my zealot is dead, the stalker cant win allone, and i lose too many probs to come back.... gg  can someone give me some replays with rly good terrans that lose with proxy fast marauder?
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Besides the missing replay (lol) I can understand bowserbowser's point.
Once there's a certain amount of tanks and anti-air (Marines, Vikings) there's literally nothing P can do than catching T off-guard or out of position.
FF does shit against sieged tanks which just annihilate any ground force P can offer.
VRs melt under Viking/Marine fire, Immortals < Marines.
Well, I rather think me, bowserbowser (and Protoss in general) are doing something wrong than the MU being imbalanced/broken.
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Hello there! I am also a Protoss player and top 5 in the diamond league. I would like to give you some advice versus the match-up against Terran but first let me tell you something. Starcraft 2 boils down to the basics! Its not about unit vs unit while it surely does matter to an extent. Take my friend for example, he plays Starcraft 2 casually and I could sure beat him with only my stalkers versus his immortals. I said no rush 15 minutes let him pump his immortals while my stalkers, who take 50 damage from Immortals, are also being pumped and I beat him. It goes down to the old saying that "Take a rich man and strip all his money, he will eventually get it back. Take a poor man and give him millions, he will eventually lose it all".
To answer your question lets first go back to the basics. At the start of every match I want you to emphasize on your build. Are you doing the same build every game? If you are not, why not? When you build your pylon do you have 40 minerals? Make that pylon so that after you build it, you have 0 minerals. Do you get supply blocked sometimes? Do you build units and harass with your probe? These are just a few questions that you should pay careful attention to. You have to be consistent on your builds because these small things are the things that separate the PROS and the AMATEURS. How do you think top players in the world consistently stay on top? If these guys are PROS, how come copying exactly their strategy doesn't put you in the #1 Diamond League? It boils down to the basics. These small difference turn into something big over time.
Strategy:
IN ALL 1v1 MAPS (only 2 base location spawns), always get a 10-gate.
** I justify this because you want to open up with a fast stalker harass or defense against reaper.
BUILD ORDER
- 9 Pylon (send probe to build pylon at about 70 minerals near your nexus)
** send this pylon probe to scout for enemy. If he has a barracks building, then he is going reapers or fast marauders with concussive shells. If he has a supply depot and building a barracks that means he is NOT going reapers anytime soon. Just check his base if he has any barracks in it or if its building. If there is not, then he is rushing reapers near your base or marauders. Both are deadly as they can kite all your units. Also if he doesn't have any vaspene geysers, that means you can rule out reapers/marauders early-game.
- 1 Probe
- 10 Gateway
- 2 probes (chrono boost)
- 13 Assimilator
- 2 probes (chrono boost; yes do it again)
- Cybernetics whenever Gateway is up
- 1 probe
- 16 Pylon
- 2 probes (chrono boost)
We want to summon our stalker (chrono boost) ASAP along with researching Warp Gates ASAP. Depending on your scouting of your 9 pylon probe, you will do one of the following:
1) Rally your gateway (summoning a stalker) to enemy base. Do this if no early vaspene or early barracks.
2) Rally your gateway to your mineral line. Do this if you suspect reaper harass.
As soon as stalker builds, build another stalker and chrono boost it.
Your stalker will see one of the following. You will either see a Barracks with Tech Lab or a naked Barracks. Sometimes you might even scout a factory or another barracks.
DO THE FOLLOWING:
If you see a barracks that is naked, send another stalker into his base and keep pumping units. Harass his supply depots/marines that come out to defend. Kill the SCVs that repair. Try to bust in his base. In the mean time you will be transitioning to a 4-gate Warp.
Focus your chrono to your Warp Gate research now. When its about 70%, build 3 more Gateways.
** ITS CRUCIAL TO ALWAYS BUILD PROBES AT YOUR NEXUS. AT LEAST (1) PROBE MUST BE BUILDING AT ALL TIMES.
Proxy pylon near his base. Send a volley of stalkers. If there are some marauders, match 1 zealot vs his marauder to tank the damage so your stalkers don't get demolished. Keep pressuring his front. Get a few sentries if you are in excess of gas. Guardian shield up. Forcefield only if you can block his untis from running away.
This will destroy anyone who is teching to tanks.
Now lets rewind back in time to the first stalker. Lets say your first stalker arrives at his base and HE DOES have a marauder or two. This is a signal to send about 2-3 more stalkers and dance around his supply depots. This will force him to go more marauders. Perfect. We transition to a 3-gate and 1-robo build.
Lets say you weren't able to scout his 3-4 barracks with tech labs with mass marauders because you thought he was going tanks and your stalker volley gets demolished. Lets say we already made a 4-gate without a robo. Don't BUILD a robotics. You cannot upkeep 4 gateways pumping constant units, probes in nexus and another robotics bay. Build a Twilight Council instead and research Hallucination at your Cybernetics. This allows you to blink stalkers and use hallucinated phoenix to scout. Also get Charge from zealots.
Basically same build as above except we are not going to be as aggressive. Always keep your resources to 0 minerals and 0 vaspene. Pump up zealots and sentries at the same time. Then stalkers. Then zealots and sentries.
Your first robo should be an observer chrono boosted.
I mean really this is the general idea of the build. Always assume drops with MMM. Always assume banshees. Always assume reapers in your base. Its pretty much common sense as far as the game goes. If you can't penetrate his front, get a gold expansion as "bait" for him to get out. If you lose it then you can hit his base or at least tell him to come out. If by any means he is outproducing you with a "bigger" force then you are doing wrong with your macro.
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So you're struggling with a matchup, and call your topic "PvT unbalanced in diamond league"... Are you serious...
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bioball with vikings is pretty much unbeatable for toss. Adding ghost to mix, makes it GG.
ALL toss units are countered by this combo.
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On May 27 2010 23:01 Garalor wrote:against the turtle terran its normaly ok to get "some" colossus because they have to decide, vikings or ghost? or tanks or vikings? they cant build "everything" yeah and dont forget fast DT sometimes good.. but scout first for ebay. than run into his base, wait for the mule. than attack. i always lose to terrans that proxy thier first rax and overrun me with marauder... its so much easier to micro 2 marauder, than to micro 1 zealot and 3- 5 probs, until your stalker is out, than micro the lot that hopefully is not dead until that point + stalker + probes against 3marauder with slow rdy... most of the time my zealot is dead, the stalker cant win allone, and i lose too many probs to come back.... gg can someone give me some replays with rly good terrans that lose with proxy fast marauder?
Day9 cast some games between Nazgul and Stelok that have the proxy marauder opening in a few of them. You could look at those to see how Nazgul dealt with it.
5/07 Razer Domination 3rd/4th place Nazgul vs Strelok
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6748474
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6749089
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On May 27 2010 23:12 bargaw wrote:
bioball with vikings is pretty much unbeatable for toss. Adding ghost to mix, makes it GG.
ALL toss units are countered by this combo.
Storm. Spread your HT's pls. Terran can't have vikings, ghost, marauders on 2 bases. If terran can get that composition then you are outplayed, that's not imbalance.
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EPT
