• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:08
CEST 10:08
KST 17:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202533RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 605 users

[D] Killing an SCV vs killing a Mule

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
fdsdfg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1251 Posts
April 24 2010 17:22 GMT
#1
Constants:

SCV Cost: 50
SCV Build time: 17s
SCV Collection rate: 1 min / s
SCV Saturation level: 22

Mule lifespan: 90s
Mule collection rate: 3 min / s

==

First let's look at a few extremes:

If there are 6 SCVs, killing one means he will have 1 less SCV from now until saturation level. He will lose the full income of that SCV plus the cost of building one extra SCV.

This equals to 21*17 + 50 mineral lost (assuming the terran does not oversaturate to prepare for expansion). That's 407 minerals, more than a Mule could bring in (270)

If there are 22 SCVs mining, then it will only take 4 more SCVs for saturation. Killing one means it now takes 5 SCVs for saturation. That's 5*17+50 = 135 minerals. Killing a brand new mule is better. In fact, this is equal to killing a half-lifespan Mule.

Now obviously this isn't the kind of math we can do during harrasment, but notice that a Mule will always be somewhere between 0 and 100% it's lifespan - average 50%. If there are 22 SCVs, the short-term mineral gain (neglecting expansions) of an SCV is equal to what the Mule is likely to bring.

In this respect, unless you are planning to deliver a one-two kill against the Terran player, it is almost always better to kill an SCV than a Mule.

This does not even account for the fact that a Mule has 60 HP while an SCV has 45.

==

My math isn't excellent on this, and there's a lot I don't account for, but I just wanted to point out that in the long-term, killing an SCV is a better idea than killing a Mule.
aka Siyko
duckhunt
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada311 Posts
April 24 2010 17:32 GMT
#2
yea but the thing is if you kill a mule 4 mins into the game with your reaper, then he will lose 270 minerals over the next 3 minutes, instead of 1min/second for the next 8 minutes
goldrush
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada709 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 17:32:59
April 24 2010 17:32 GMT
#3
nvm, got it.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
April 24 2010 17:34 GMT
#4
hmm, good find. I will definitely start killing SCVs from now on.
Sky101
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States1758 Posts
April 24 2010 17:35 GMT
#5
I thought SCV saturation level is about 16? I mean, 2 SCV's on a patch is a LITTLE BIT over-saturated, assuming one SCV starts mining immediately after the other is done, you'll soon see that after 2-3 trips, 1 SCV will have to wait for the other to finish mining.

Say you kill 1 SCV, he'd stand to lose 17(minerals per a new SCV build time) + 50 = 67 minerals.
But if you kill a Mule, he'd lose 3 x 45(half of the Mule's lifespan) = 135 minerals.
I thought the math is clear??
Peter, Dang, pm me!!!
fdsdfg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1251 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 17:43:27
April 24 2010 17:40 GMT
#6
On April 25 2010 02:32 duckhunt wrote:
yea but the thing is if you kill a mule 4 mins into the game with your reaper, then he will lose 270 minerals over the next 3 minutes, instead of 1min/second for the next 8 minutes


This is true, but if you're not looking for a victory in the next ~5 minutes, then you're better off killing the SCV.

On April 25 2010 02:35 Sky101 wrote:
I thought SCV saturation level is about 16? I mean, 2 SCV's on a patch is a LITTLE BIT over-saturated, assuming one SCV starts mining immediately after the other is done, you'll soon see that after 2-3 trips, 1 SCV will have to wait for the other to finish mining.


It's 16 SCVs for minerals, and 6 more for gas = 22. The opponent is responsible for managing how many are on Gas vs Minerals before saturation, and this means there is a direct exchange rate of Minerals vs Gas. Assuming the opponent handles this optimally, the mineral cost will be the same, but there will just be an equivalent gas cost associated with those lost minerals (if he has to pull an SCV off gas to replace the minerals he's losing.

Say you kill 1 SCV, he'd stand to lose 17(minerals per a new SCV build time) + 50 = 67 minerals.
But if you kill a Mule, he'd lose 3 x 45(half of the Mule's lifespan) = 135 minerals.
I thought the math is clear??


If he is under saturation though, he will be pumping SCVs constantly - this means he cannot simply 'replace' that lost SCV and get back to where he was. He will be short 1 SCV from now until he stops pumping SCVs (saturation)
aka Siyko
Gretorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States586 Posts
April 24 2010 17:43 GMT
#7
you should look at this relative to your economy. It can't be like thie for example, I can do the same exact analysis assuming infinite time, and I can say I should mass BCs instead of getting marines. but there exists relativity to the opponent. mules will be stronger to kill as it gives you a relative advantage for the next 90 seconds, assuming equal economy. also there exists saturation caps with scvs, so it ruins some of your numbers (1 min/s) as you increase your scv count. Unless the mule is about to die to time, always kill the mules first. The relative advantage is much greater.
I am Unheard Change
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
April 24 2010 17:44 GMT
#8
The OP erroneousness calculates the build time for the additional four SCVs when trying to find a value for killing the one SCV. In reality, it's only 17+50, plus a touch more that can't easily be calculated, but not an additional 17*4.

However, it also doesn't include that the cost to replace an SCV can impede building another building or unit, although it generally will have a negligible effect (you're generally chaining scvs anyway).
twitch.tv/cratonz
fdsdfg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1251 Posts
April 24 2010 17:46 GMT
#9
On April 25 2010 02:44 Craton wrote:
The OP erroneousness calculates the build time for the additional four SCVs when trying to find a value for killing the one SCV. In reality, it's only 17+50, plus a touch more that can't easily be calculated, but not an additional 17*4.


This is assuming the opponent's CC woudl have been idle instead of replacing that SCV. The only time that should happen is if the opponent is already saturated. If he is not, then he should optimally be pumping SCVs constantly, meaning he can't replace that SCV until he builds the next 4 SCVs he was going to build anyway - meaning he is 1 SCV short that whole time.
aka Siyko
Sky101
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States1758 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-24 17:55:55
April 24 2010 17:55 GMT
#10
Also don't forget that by the time you can get a unit in to kill an SCV/Mule, he should have around 10+ mining minerals and minimum 3 mining gas, say, averagely 18 SCV's.

I still believe killing a Mule is way better. You're assuming everyone will saturate their mineral line, which is not true. Most people generally have 20 or less SCV's mining per base. Not only that, after 10+ scv's on minerals, each one after that doesn't have as much an important effect on your economy as, say, the original 8 would. Whereas the Mule, because it is oblivious to saturation, adds such a huge income boost to your economy.
Peter, Dang, pm me!!!
The6357
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States1268 Posts
April 24 2010 18:01 GMT
#11
I swear to god there is gonna be masters degree offered for SC2 in universities in near future...
2010 worldcup!! corea fighting!!!
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
April 24 2010 18:18 GMT
#12
Yes, in long term killing SCVs is better. But SC is not about long term, you don't try to cannon up and defend till you have 12 carriers and can tear enemy apart. You want to kill him at the first possible opportunity, that's why aiming at big but short-lasting advantagesd is more liked than things that will give you advantage over large amount of time. However if you are SURE that the game will drag - then it surely may be wiser to kill SCVs
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
April 24 2010 19:42 GMT
#13
Just kill the mule.
Slowing him down 270 soon means his factory or whatever will be late etc etc.
Its a big chain event of slowdown and 270 short term is strong early game.
LOL!
Cmon ppl...
CMON!!!
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
Axonn
Profile Joined April 2010
Croatia287 Posts
April 24 2010 19:50 GMT
#14
This depends on stage of the game in my opinion. Killing a mule gives you not just the economic advantage but it also gives you psychological advance because enemy will go: OH MAN he sniped my mule RAGEE. And if you kill scv he will think: huuuh I've saved my mule... So besides that he wasted 50 energy in CC which he could have used on extra supply (~100 min) or on scan. Other thing if you walk inside 22SCVs +2 Mules i think you'll start killing anything (maybe mule for psychological AD) and if you can kill 22 SCVs you can kill 2 mules with them. But as you showed with your mathematics SCV kill is better on longer run.Thank you for the effort to show us the difference
Aikin
Profile Joined April 2010
Austria532 Posts
April 24 2010 19:51 GMT
#15
It depends completly on the situation. If the scv will life for 3 more minutes it will harvest as much as a mule in its full lifetime. Also the scv costs 50 minerals itself. If you want to dmg him in the long run you go for the svc cause the mule come back anyway you just denie it for some time - If you kill the mule you denie a certain ammout of minerals while an svc can mine as long as there are free mineral patches. On the other hand if you see him spawning a mule and kill it instantly it can mess up his macro in the next minute if he cannot support his rax/fac usw.
[A]dmiral Bulldog | Naniwa | [A]lliance
puril
Profile Joined April 2010
United States43 Posts
April 25 2010 00:57 GMT
#16
i think killing scv's is almost always better considering they have less hp so you can kill more and you don't know how long the mule has been up.
Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
April 25 2010 01:12 GMT
#17
If you kill a mule while it is returning minerals you stop him from getting even more minerals since they dissapear into thin air and he no longer has a chance to mine them ~
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
April 25 2010 01:13 GMT
#18
Obviously kill the mule, in the early game it will screw up the Terran's timing a lot more than it would to kill an SCV.
DrSmoke
Profile Joined April 2010
United States175 Posts
April 25 2010 01:37 GMT
#19
There is another benefit to killing the scvs. Mules cannot gather gas or build, so killing scvs further limits your opponents options, and their building ability.
xnub
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada610 Posts
April 25 2010 01:44 GMT
#20
Think it all depends on how much time the mule has left most times i just go for the SCVs on gas first really fucks the person up and if you are lucky he forgets to put some back on gas : )
Loving the beta !! Weeeeeeee
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 52m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech77
StarCraft: Brood War
Nal_rA 7155
Hyuk 4183
BeSt 1376
Zeus 1325
ToSsGirL 293
Leta 83
Sacsri 65
Backho 49
ajuk12(nOOB) 21
NaDa 17
[ Show more ]
Sharp 11
Britney 0
Dota 2
XcaliburYe193
BananaSlamJamma34
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K855
Other Games
summit1g5894
ceh9605
Happy76
SortOf49
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1148
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH466
• Sammyuel 39
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota268
• WagamamaTV42
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
1h 52m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 1h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.