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This is my first post in TL, a site i really admire due to its serieousness and the level of its posts, so first of all i'd like to say that for me it's a pride to even write a post here. I'll really try to contribute, and i feel a bit ashamed about my first post being one like this, but i really think that i need a bit of feedback before writing anything acceptable about SC2, and i'm sure i'm not the only one in this situation playing the beta (or maybe yes and that's the problem). Also is difficult to me to express myself with precision when not talking in my mother tongue, so my apologies about that, i'm trying to sound as "serious" as i can, but i bet i'm not achieving it x).
Ok so about the topic, i'd like to say first that i'm a reasonably good player at some other games. I'm a strong chess player, and i've been playing some soccer and fighting videogames at relatively high levels. I hadn't been playing RTS's too much, and thought that SC2 was the perfect oportunity to change sports/fight games for something more interesting. In fact, i've been a bit tired about videogames lately, and i wanted to give and opportunity to the acclaimed Starcraft (SC2 being the definitive esport, as i'd been reading, etc) to regain the faith in them.
But what i have found in this beta is just an insane learning curve, an extremely demanding "game" that i hardly could define as something you do for "fun" (is even harder to play "reasonably" well than games like chess..or that is my actual impression, maybe is that i'm getting older? Maybe is just that hard at the very beginning?). I've been reading posts for weeks and its just crazy for someone who have never played seriously to SC or even WC3. I'm not sure if the experimented players are conscious about the level of metaconecepts and nuances of all kind that the game has..and you have to grasp them and use them in a ridiculously fast way. At least in chess you have some time to think! In SC, like i have read in countless posts, "If you are thinking in SC, you have already lost". Ok, in CS you don't have time to think either, but it doesn't have the tons and tons of metagame's issues, timing issues, macro and whatnot nuances that SC has.. Don't get me wrong, i understand all the basics about economy, micro and macro, OP's, counters, exopos, scouting, etc..it just that understanding all that things is not even close to be enough for being an acceptable player :S. With the same level of effort than in other games you get quite good, in SC seems to be that you still are a total noob.
So my intention is not to make the classical post "I suck, what do i have to do to not suck?" I know that the answer is just playing and playing, trying and trying like just everything else in life. What i really would like know is, knowing that in SC the concept of "playing and playing" or "practising and practising" is even more important than in other games, realising about the effort that playing SC seems to involve..what make it really different?, what make SC worth playing?
I know is a quite personal and subjective question..saying it in another way, For someone who is 25, is a bit tired of videogames in general, doesn't have too much time and only want to play for "fun"..is really worth start playing from scratch a game like SC2? I mean, is really that satisfactory when you really know what your are doing (like, i would say, "real" tennis, which i is incredibly rewarding when you get better)? Or is it closer to the sensation of WoW, you know, when you stop playing, look back to all the time you have spend playing it and think "what a waste of time"? (i suposse that if you are in this forums you are not going to answer the second option, but it will be very interesting to me to understand why is different of WoW). In conclusion, i would like to know your motivations for playing something as demanding as SC seems to be, to make sure that this game is not another "WoWistic" time waster. Something closest to chess or a real sport, if you know what i mean, something you would not end regreting about being giving your time to it.
After all that cryings, I'll end the post making some "real" questions, i suposse that despite of all, this is an "I suck, what do i have to do to not suck?" post in some way after all x):
- I obviously have tried the liquipedia, but the SC2 section is yet almost empty, so, Should i use SC1 liquipedia for now, or should i just wait until the game is finished and SC2's liquipedia has more information on it? Can i extrapolate sc1 concepts to SC2, or that would be only worse? Toss still the easiest race to start?
- Is this beta just a bad site for startig to play? (due to too much good players, etc)
- Is real SC more a tactical game than a strategic game? (i usually prefer strategic games than tactical ones, and i'm having the impression that in SC tactics (aka mechanical training micro) are just too important compared to strategies, but obviously i haven't played enough to have a real image about the question..anyway i find way more interesting all the things about OP's, counters, knowing what the opponent is doing etc than microing units..)
Thanks to everyone. If this is not the forum (or even the site) to post something like this, please let me know. I suposse that i will have enough with not being banned x).
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Nice first post. Welcome!
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Problem 1: "Practice"
Indication you are taking the game too seriously at the level you are at.
Play the game, enjoy it for what it offers. If it does not appeal to you then there is no reason to continue playing the game.
From there, just keep in mind the initial steps of relatively easy build orders, try to maintain a consistent timing through the games you play. If you're a noob macro > micro.
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Well the first step should, since you seem to not have played any RTS for a long time, is to just get the basic mechanics down. This mean's using the hotkeys, control groups, etc, getting used to the RTS controls.
Next you should be learning about things like microing and macroing, and things like not queuing up units and remembering to use your macro abilities.
After that I think you should begin seriously practicing build orders and such.
This is of course if you plan to play it competitively for a while, if not then just do what the above poster said.
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When I am playing well and macroing in the late game, it feels very good. I am constantly hotkeying, producing units, rallying them. I get a good sensation when I'm building supply depots, calling mules, making scvs, making sure the lights in my barracks don't go off, upgrading, posturing, and keeping my minerals low. It feels really good when I am able to do that and not get supply blocked/queue up too many units.
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Newcomers need to play the single player game first before jumping into multiplayer. Wait till the game comes out. They also have tutorial missions in the game to help you out.
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Too answer your question every one of us were once in your shoes. Starcraft is my favorite game of all time and getting better at it is part of the fun.
Enjoy the journey, not the destination.
On March 25 2010 10:11 DanceDance wrote:
Newcomers need to play the single player game first before jumping into multiplayer. Wait till the game comes out. They also have tutorial missions in the game to help you out.
Single player game might as well be a different game from multiplayer. Dont discourage him from trying his hand at the worlds best competive e-sport. He could be the next Bisu!
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The reason I was excited about getting into beta was to get started on sucking.
Starcraft has a large learning curve (like you mentioned) but that's mainly the fun part.
It's similar to chess in the fact that you can understand the fundamentals and basic strategy fairly simply.
My advice - When you have the opportunity to play, then play! Mechanics (as a beginner) are very important to improve upon. Don't worry about losing, especially cause it's beta!
Right now there isn't much to do. But when you start feeling the burnout from 1v1s, find a buddy and do 2s or even FFA can be relaxing.
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Play for fun, read liquipedia as it gets updated more and more, watch other streams, replays etc and read the odd thread discussing x is imba nerf x now thread and you hear lots of stuff about a lot of other units etc giving you good general knowledge.
Lasting make friends in game.
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Don't take the game too seriously if you're just starting out. The most important thing is to HAVE FUN. If you enjoy playing the game, you will learn on your own naturally. To be good at something, you generally have to enjoy doing it - so enjoy yourself. Once you find yourself improving and having the basics down, you then can 'practice' to really improve your play. We didn't learn how to walk before learning how to crawl.
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Dustin Browder stated himself that a new player jumping into beta right now would be like a newbie jumping into WoW level 80 PvP. Multiplayer will obviously be difficult for new players, if you wait for the actual game to be released and play single player, that would help you get a lot better. And yeah, don't worry about getting better while you're a new player, just enjoy it. You could always pass the SC1 campaign for now, some of those skills will transfer over.
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Welcome as well, to the definitive Starcraft site. As you said, it's an honor to be a part of it.
In response to your post, I think you should also probably keep something in mind - this is a Beta. Most of the people who got the Beta, received keys because at some level they are a Starcraft nut. Now if you were fortunate enough to get a key somehow, through maybe a Blizzard event or other, and aren't a Starcraft nut, well, lucky for you - there are many who would do unspeakable things to be in your position. I think a lot of the people who are playing the beta right now are pretty hard core Starcraft gamers, or at the least have been following the game for some time, or are pretty familiar with the SCBW scene.
Once the game actually gets released, I'm sure that there will be many more people who are in the exact same position that you are in. Having been a fan of Starcraft: BroodWar from day 1, I can honestly say that one of the most helpful, and epic things that I did with the game was play through the single player campaigns. Through the campaigns you learn a lot about the units, how they work, some strategies, and a lot of fundamentals that you are just expected to "know" in the Beta. So wait for the single player campaigns to come out for SC2 before making any final conclusions - I think the best is only yet to come!
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StarCraft is very much based on both strategy and tactics. Strategy being your over all game-plan and tactics the cute little tricks you can do in battles that help but aren't the center of your game.
I play StarCraft because you simply cannot find another game that can compare to it. It is like the definition of a game where you not only need fast mechanical skills but also very good and very quick judgment skills. It is also a game where losing is just as important as winning which you cannot say for most games.
StarCraft is most certainly a game where you can't be good on theory or raw instincts alone. It's not a FPS where you can pick it up and have it generally the same as any other FPS. The amount of information you have to take in, consider, judge what you should do, do what you think needs to be done, access the new situation, and so on is insanely higher than other games in my opinion. On top of all that information you have to gather, and use you have to do it far faster AND do a lot more with it than typical games. You don't just have to turn and shoot, throw a grenade, jump, run.
I do think the SC2 match making system and copper/bronze/silver/gold/platinum system really helps out newer players because chances are they will be placed in an appropriate level and will also be playing against equally good players.
Yes the learning curve is high just due to all the skills and information you need on top of the usual knowing the weapons/units/maps or whatever a game typically requires. There are just so many more mechanics which are over whelming to new players but really reward hard work and experience.
You mention chess and StarCraft has it's parallels to it in some aspects. You have to be able to think far ahead in time. What will they do if I do this? If I do that, what will they do? If they do this, this or that what will I have to do and what will that cause them to do? StarCraft parallels a lot of life lessons too where you have to be willing to put the time and effort in, take defeat in stride and just keep going at it. I must say there is no better thrill than winning a match you never expected you could/would win.
Remember what Boxer told us, Never surrender.
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You should extrapolate SC1's history and extrapolate the big concepts like expansion control and general game sense.
the beta is a very hard place to start playing, you shouldnt expect to do well unless you have a lot of RTS background and are able to put in the hours of play time.
Strategies are very important, tactics are an element of strategy that is lost when the real time aspect is removed. Your over all game plan is important and using tactics to discover if it is correct and adapt are important.
This is just my oppinions on this
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The beta will probably have a larger percentage of RTS veterans than release, so in a way yes, it's a bad place for someone new to RTS. Then again, practicing now will help get you on par with said veterans when the game is out.
Yes, Starcraft is probably more tactical than strategical, but so are most RTS. When tens of thousands of people play thousands of games, eventually the most common strategies are going to be found, copied, and repeated over and over again, and alot of the difference will be made in who is the fastest and makes the least mistakes (on a set path). This was most evident in the last years of WC3, matches became pretty stale and everyone knew how a match would play out, it was just a matter of performing your strategy to the best you could.
That isn't to say there is no room for brilliant thinking at all, but it needs to be fast and happen while you're actually playing the game, you get no free time to think something over. The best player will not only be able to play fast, but also adapt quickly and appropriately to new situations.
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On March 25 2010 10:11 Archerofaiur wrote:
Single player game might as well be a different game from multiplayer. Dont discourage him from trying his hand at the worlds best competive e-sport. He could be the next Bisu!
I'm not trying to discourage him or anything. It's just the beta and of course there is going to be a huge learning curve if a person hasn't played the first starcraft or the new single player campaign. Things will be better for multiplayer when it comes out anyway, more newbs to play with and the leagues will (hopefully) be better optimized.
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as of right now, i dont see much point in getting good at sc2 too much. try to improve your mechanics, mostly macro, hotkeys + shortcuts, and then play purely for fun and for getting used to the game. eventually, you'll remember all the units and what they do, you'll recognize things way faster, and then once the game gets a bit more stagnant you can then try to hardcore learn it.
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On March 25 2010 10:00 evilK wrote:
- Is real SC more a tactical game than a strategic game? (i usually prefer strategic games than tactical ones, and i'm having the impression that in SC tactics (aka mechanical training micro) are just too important compared to strategies, but obviously i haven't played enough to have a real image about the question..anyway i find way more interesting all the things about OP's, counters, knowing what the opponent is doing etc than microing units..)
It is both. You need the "tactical" skills to play the game itself. But in a high end game even if you had ridiculously good mechanics you will find that there is an overwhelmingly large amount of strategic play. If you know what you're better at be sure to use it towards your advantage. This involves something like scouting and understanding your opponent can and can not do. As well as forseeing the outcome of each attack and multiple scenarios before they happen (like chess).
As far as if playing a game is worth it. The game sure is fun, way more fun and replayability than WoW. But like everything else you cant expect to throw down thousands of hours on something and be able to look back on it years and remember the "motions" of the game itself. You're more likely to remember epic games, moving up ranks in ladder, or specific tournaments.
Another bonus about learning a game as competitive as SC2 is that you can watch the pro games streamed or commentated and actually understand all of the intense battles and decisions being made. Some observed games are more memorable than you would expect from a computer game.
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- Is this beta just a bad site for startig to play? (due to too much good players, etc)
In a word, yes. Dustin Browder even (almost) said this in a recent beta interview. (He pointed out there's a large number of newbs and a large number of experienced players, and the beta doesn't contain challenges and other tools to teach the game.)
Teaching tools will be in the released product, and of course you'll have time to get familiar with the units in the campaign (well, at least some terran ones anyway).
If you're getting crushed, it could just mean the AMM isn't working properly. Once that gets working, you should only be facing lower-skilled players, which will hopefully give you time to get used to the units, interface, etc.
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The really great moments of sc/sc2 are when you are playing and realize things like "holy shit... my opponent is scared right now" when you see them build too much defense... or when you and your opponent are both playing extremely well and have amazing battles, each pulling off great micro and harassment and such. and the best thing about these kinds of moments is you don't have to be an amazing player to experience them. You just have to have the basics down and play against people at your level.
I do not look back at my years of playing sc as a waste at all. My status in the game is quantifiable by my skill (not gosu or anything of course, but reasonable), not by how much time I put in or how many items I collected. In addition to that, my sc skills transfer to other things, some as silly as being able to type and click very fast when programming, others like planning out how to solve tasks.
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EPT
