EPTReally hard for newcomers. Worth it? - Page 2
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Ebuzola
Belgium19 Posts
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Setz3R
United States455 Posts
If you wish to just be a spectator, there is a place for you in this community. But the fun part about watching games goes further as well. When I watch pros I think, hey I would do this, I would do that, and when I can guess what he does, it feels good. When I see him do something else, I say why would he do that? Oh because of this. I like figuring things out. I like rooting for my favorite team, I like being apart of the game and community as much as possible. So in closing I say to you, play if you have fun playing. After I watch a good game or replay or hear some funny, yet insightful commentary, it makes me even more pumped to play. I want to do funny things, I want to do be impressed by my own merit in-game, so that's why I play. Find that focus, if you think its futile because you can't devote the time to be "pro", it isn't the end of the game, but it is what you make it. TL;dr -- Play if its fun, if the learning curve sucks to bad play tennis!! Then win!!! | ||
BroOd
Austin10831 Posts
It took some people years to get where they wanted in Brood War. I think your expectations of your own skill level at this point (I mean, we're not even out of beta yet...) is highly unreasonable. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
Great first post and I will definitely read any thread you make, Welcome! | ||
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
as far as comparisons to other games go, WoW and starcraft give two different skillsets- WoW gives you teamwork ability and excelent spatial awareness and timing skills, SC forces you to think like a chessplayer and requires awareness of a huge number of things at once. Neither is a waste of time if you apply those skills learned, both are if you don't. | ||
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z]Benny
Romania253 Posts
As far as tactical vs strategical, what's amazing about this game (well SC, and hopefully SC2) is that after you mastered the tactical (i.e. mechanical) only then do you really take on the strategies of SC at their full potential. At top level there aren't problems like weak macro, idle workers etc. there are only better strategies. | ||
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sleeepy
Canada777 Posts
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
I think is better to learn the strategy first and then the mechanics, this can sound stupid, but if you have no idea of what you have to do, you are going to be lost and your mechanics are going to bad even if you practice a lot. So i recommend you to follow this steps: 1 - Pick a match up: ZvZ,ZvP,TvP,ZvT, etc... 2 - Watch a ton of good player replays of what they do, and pick the ones that they make the same build order and try to understand the reasons behind (if you cant, ask in this forums) 3 - When you know what to do and how to do it (easier now as you can see the hotkeys) try to copy it (its better with a partner than vs strangers because you dont have pressure and can pick every variable like map,race etc...) 4 - After doing the thing 10 times watch your own replays, try to catch at most 5 mistakes, focus on some of them ( 3 at most) and play 10 games once again, rewatch replays and get more mistakes and so on(try to focus on mechanical mistakes first). 5 - Eventually, you will be able to play that MU quite good, at that point is where you can try to adjust your build to your style, and make some tweaks. If you start on the 4th pass as some have mentioned, you are going to be completly lost and dont know what to do, also if you invent your own Build order without any knowledge you are going to screw up almost for sure and get brain memory of something that is completly wrong. | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
i have a friend whom i gave my second beta key to who was more of a shooter player before, drawing much from reflexes and things like that, even when he played pvp in wow. he played some wc3 before and made fun of how sc players spam apm so much in the beginning of the game. when i invited him to play beta with me it didnt take many games until he told me that he never would have thought that there were so many things to do in sc2, and that he feels stupid for making fun of apm spam before. he said that he is enjoying it very much to have so many things to improve upon and to excel at - so many things to keep you busy and using your skills the entire game, not wasting a second. while it is true that you need to be good at a lot of things at the same time to play a decent game, you can see a ton of improvement every single game just because there are so many things to improve upon. but as with every other game you need to have the right people to play with. plain laddering can be frustrating, and going against the ai all the time wont be much fun either. i started out playing bw about 10 years ago when a friend of mine asked me to. i was horrible. my apm wasnt even consistently above 50. i didnt know anything, and didnt do a lot of things (but didnt know that at the time, of course!). but i knew my friend personally, so i always wanted to try hard to give him a run for his money. first he would rush me every single time in the beginning (zealot rush, pvz), and i would die to it every single time. but i focused on splitting my drones faster, getting my overlord, pool, hatchery out faster with every try and did the same bo over and over. even though i was far from being able to match him even remotely, i was cheering and joyful for every second that my build got faster, for every increase in apm be it ever so small. i knew from replays when pros would be finished with splitting their drones (2-3seconds for them to all reach separate mineral patches) and when their buildings would pop out. so i knew where to place myself and where i was going. after surviving the rush i had to learn how to deal with his tech, how to keep him from expanding and gaining big advantages etc and even though i never catched up to him (i would beat him occasionally, but he would still keep a sharp winning record) my gaming improved a whole lot. before long my apm got to about 130, which is enough to play the game decently, and at the end of my "career" i was comfortably sitting at 240 apm, my sole weakness being really deep game understanding that people like mondragon or other top players display. i am a perfectionist. i watch my replays and when my split is off by one second it makes my unhappy. if my pool is off by one second it makes me unhappy. if i stockpile more than 300 minerals, get more than 2 larvae on a hatchery, have idle workers, forget to build supply, dont make enough drones etc... all these things make watching a game i played less fun for me. so when i see something like this, i tried to do it better next time. im no good strategical thinker (otherwise i would be playing poker 24/7 already), but i like to rely on pure mechanical skill like that coppled with knowledge of very basic things like when to expand, contain, attack etc. long story short: tons of things to do arent always bad. it also means you can have fun improving on each and every one of them, but you will have more fun when you play with the right people so you are always motivated to do better, while at the same time still able to slack off and do silly stuff. im trying to get my friend up to the same level where i am now so that we can practice together and then have some competition also in laddering. so yes, i think it is absolutely worth it, if you have at least one other person to play the game with. | ||
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krdgqtx
United States26 Posts
On March 25 2010 10:00 evilK wrote: This is my first post in TL, a site i really admire due to its serieousness and the level of its posts, so first of all i'd like to say that for me it's a pride to even write a post here. I'll really try to contribute, and i feel a bit ashamed about my first post being one like this, but i really think that i need a bit of feedback before writing anything acceptable about SC2, and i'm sure i'm not the only one in this situation playing the beta (or maybe yes and that's the problem). Also is difficult to me to express myself with precision when not talking in my mother tongue, so my apologies about that, i'm trying to sound as "serious" as i can, but i bet i'm not achieving it x). Ok so about the topic, i'd like to say first that i'm a reasonably good player at some other games. I'm a strong chess player, and i've been playing some soccer and fighting videogames at relatively high levels. I hadn't been playing RTS's too much, and thought that SC2 was the perfect oportunity to change sports/fight games for something more interesting. In fact, i've been a bit tired about videogames lately, and i wanted to give and opportunity to the acclaimed Starcraft (SC2 being the definitive esport, as i'd been reading, etc) to regain the faith in them. But what i have found in this beta is just an insane learning curve, an extremely demanding "game" that i hardly could define as something you do for "fun" (is even harder to play "reasonably" well than games like chess..or that is my actual impression, maybe is that i'm getting older? Maybe is just that hard at the very beginning?). I've been reading posts for weeks and its just crazy for someone who have never played seriously to SC or even WC3. I'm not sure if the experimented players are conscious about the level of metaconecepts and nuances of all kind that the game has..and you have to grasp them and use them in a ridiculously fast way. At least in chess you have some time to think! In SC, like i have read in countless posts, "If you are thinking in SC, you have already lost". Ok, in CS you don't have time to think either, but it doesn't have the tons and tons of metagame's issues, timing issues, macro and whatnot nuances that SC has.. Don't get me wrong, i understand all the basics about economy, micro and macro, OP's, counters, exopos, scouting, etc..it just that understanding all that things is not even close to be enough for being an acceptable player :S. With the same level of effort than in other games you get quite good, in SC seems to be that you still are a total noob. So my intention is not to make the classical post "I suck, what do i have to do to not suck?" I know that the answer is just playing and playing, trying and trying like just everything else in life. What i really would like know is, knowing that in SC the concept of "playing and playing" or "practising and practising" is even more important than in other games, realising about the effort that playing SC seems to involve..what make it really different?, what make SC worth playing? I know is a quite personal and subjective question..saying it in another way, For someone who is 25, is a bit tired of videogames in general, doesn't have too much time and only want to play for "fun"..is really worth start playing from scratch a game like SC2? I mean, is really that satisfactory when you really know what your are doing (like, i would say, "real" tennis, which i is incredibly rewarding when you get better)? Or is it closer to the sensation of WoW, you know, when you stop playing, look back to all the time you have spend playing it and think "what a waste of time"? (i suposse that if you are in this forums you are not going to answer the second option, but it will be very interesting to me to understand why is different of WoW). In conclusion, i would like to know your motivations for playing something as demanding as SC seems to be, to make sure that this game is not another "WoWistic" time waster. Something closest to chess or a real sport, if you know what i mean, something you would not end regreting about being giving your time to it. After all that cryings, I'll end the post making some "real" questions, i suposse that despite of all, this is an "I suck, what do i have to do to not suck?" post in some way after all x): - I obviously have tried the liquipedia, but the SC2 section is yet almost empty, so, Should i use SC1 liquipedia for now, or should i just wait until the game is finished and SC2's liquipedia has more information on it? Can i extrapolate sc1 concepts to SC2, or that would be only worse? Toss still the easiest race to start? - Is this beta just a bad site for startig to play? (due to too much good players, etc) - Is real SC more a tactical game than a strategic game? (i usually prefer strategic games than tactical ones, and i'm having the impression that in SC tactics (aka mechanical training micro) are just too important compared to strategies, but obviously i haven't played enough to have a real image about the question..anyway i find way more interesting all the things about OP's, counters, knowing what the opponent is doing etc than microing units..) Thanks to everyone. If this is not the forum (or even the site) to post something like this, please let me know. I suposse that i will have enough with not being banned x). This is the exact problem I am having  Even I registered like a week ago.I had played SC1 a long long time ago, but it was only with a bunch of some friends on LAN, I really did not know many things bout SC then. I was so excited to get a SC2 beta key, but I was afraid I would suck a lot, so I did not even play for around 2 weeks, I was just watching replays and videos on youtube. I got absolutely demolished in the placement games placed in copper, though always I felt like i knew what i was doing, but small things would escape my mind, like forgetting to hotkey the 4th & 5th newly constructed barrack in my barracks group. Forgetting that i had raised my supply depots so my reinforcements were not getting anywhere. I would forget that it takes a good amount of time to get the weapons and armor upgrades at E.Bay. That I need a factory first to get a starport and many many such things.Whenever I watch my replays, I find that I started out well, I am neck and neck with the others guys military count sometimes even ahead, but then after the initial push or defense (in which I dont lose the game) but then I start falling back. I even do expansions well too, getting a good amount of buildings, just cant get enough units though my economy might be actually doing well, coz I am fighting somewhere and forget getting troops Almost all the times my 'Structures' score is better than my opponents, 'Units' is where I suck I have not played RTSes in more than 6-7 years and the last one i played was AoE. Then I gave up gaming completely to concentrate on school and only in the senior year began playing some CS and got really good at it, the whole strategy aspect of that game appealed to my RTS roots, but then my team disbanded when school ended. So again a break. And now I am trying to get back in SC2, but my APM just outrightly sucks. Blah.. sorry for another noobish rant, I love this site and the amount of analysis/discussions that members do here. The mentally challenging aspect of SC is what is keeping me interested, but I just suck at gameplay, haha. | ||
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sith
United States2474 Posts
Good idea: Understanding why you use such build orders so you don't HAVE to memorize them. Is there a reason you go ____ in response to _____? Of course there is, and you need to understand that reasoning before you get a good strategic grasp on the game. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On March 25 2010 10:24 Legendary- wrote: Hey man, good post. I'm sure others including myself are wondering what to really do about SC2 beta at this point. I myself am somewhat of a novice compared to most SC vets. Even people who played SC for 1 month have more experience than I do. I am learning the game because I think that--like most things, it is fun to learn new things. Strategy games like SC1 and WC3 are probably more of a spectator sport to people who don't want to compete at that professional level, and that is fine. If you wish to just be a spectator, there is a place for you in this community. But the fun part about watching games goes further as well. When I watch pros I think, hey I would do this, I would do that, and when I can guess what he does, it feels good. When I see him do something else, I say why would he do that? Oh because of this. I like figuring things out. I like rooting for my favorite team, I like being apart of the game and community as much as possible. So in closing I say to you, play if you have fun playing. After I watch a good game or replay or hear some funny, yet insightful commentary, it makes me even more pumped to play. I want to do funny things, I want to do be impressed by my own merit in-game, so that's why I play. Find that focus, if you think its futile because you can't devote the time to be "pro", it isn't the end of the game, but it is what you make it. TL;dr -- Play if its fun, if the learning curve sucks to bad play tennis!! Then win!!! Hey hey don't hate on tennis. I'd argue that sport also has a pretty steep learning curve. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
25, tired of games, and little time, the answer is hell no, unless you find the time is worth the experience (fun). This coming from someone that has sunk a significant amount of time into sc and regrets it slightly due to not finding playing all that fun & little reward. Still while you might be thinking about the ends now, that hardly matters since it comes down to playing in the present moment. If you find you want to keep playing for whatever reason then you will. Certain people will play a lot and some will even excel for a variety of reasons which are not easily explicable. To sum up: Why not go ahead and play casually. If you find yourself playing more and more because you enjoy the game/challenge/community then think about what it takes to play competitively vs casually. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
imo, one problem with the current state of sc2 is most people already know how, and want to play in a competitive manner. When I, and many other bw veterans I assume, learned sc, I learned through playing all sorts of different game modes and I didn't even begin to play many 1v1s until I had a pretty solid grasp of the game. (Money maps, 2v2s, 3v3s (of low quality because many people were just noobs like me) and even ums and ffa.) This is important considering a 1v1 match is the most mentally demanding game type imo. It's just tough to jump into the most difficult part of a game and work to improve while having a good time. Hopefully the final release with the campaign will help people who are new to the game to have a stepping stone to multiplayer and even then there should be plenty of beginners to play with each other. | ||
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Grendor
United States70 Posts
Imagine the beta right now as a giant gymnasium full of the master, good, intermediate, and some beginning players. Generally the beginners aren't lasting that long because... it's not that fun to lose to nameless opponents over and over. Really you need to find a partner that is also new, and play some games with them. It doesn't help that you can't play against the computer right now because the AI is so weak. When the full version comes out there will be many more types of play and you might find one you like! However, in the end it comes down to whether or not you "catch the bug" of RTS. Most people either love it or hate it. It's not for everyone. | ||
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Rarthyr
England1 Post
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squ1d
United States178 Posts
I keep this next to me even though I never read it while in-game. What I do is after the game finished, if I lost I write down in my notebook why I lost, where I made mistakes and what I should do next to do better according to the list below. Here's my small, but in my opinion important list (if you have suggestions, please post them so I can update it  )- Buildings o Upgrade and Tech Buildings o Unit Buildings o Supply - Army o Unit Composition o Overall Size o Location and Terrain o Upgrades - Income o Expansions o Worker Saturation Questions I ask myself after playing a game: - Who has the advantage in each of the factors above in the major moments of the game? - Which factor I forgot to improve systematically? And here’s how I like to analyze Starcraft strategically – it’s not a guide, but instead a basic outline of when you should diverge strategies or converge towards a goal. Strategic Divergence and Convergence - Divergence (Brainstorming with yourself) o If you scout something out of the ordinary, or that gives you information that you should change your army composition. o Whenever you’re thinking about which strategy you want to pursue. - Convergence o Focusing on a single aspect of the Major Factors (like opponent’s expansions) and working towards achieving a specific goal (such as preventing him from taking them). Example: Focusing on expanding. But you have to remind yourself that Starcraft is not deterministic, and causal relationships are too lose, so to achieve a specific goal you can always choose different paths. With that in mind, your sound judgment and ability to read the situation are the most important skills to have. Forget about APM, forget about build orders, you must think about what is going on and act or react accordingly. | ||
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Windblade
United States161 Posts
In release you really will play against people who play just like you, and as you get better you'll play better people. But as people said before, just try and get the basics...if you pawned hardcore watch the replay and see what the other person did, watch their perspective and see what they did and what they saw you do and screw up on | ||
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Ideas
United States8109 Posts
but if you find the difficulty of the game fun in addition to just the game itself then you will really love it. | ||
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