EPTBeyond that, I could argue that I play for the community. No other game has a community like starcraft does, and sites like teamliquid to support them. There is always something to do or take part in, and when you don't feel like it, you can watch a professional play the game you are attempting to get good at. The pro scene definitely adds excitement to the game, as well as things that you will want to try because your favorite progamer did them.
Really hard for newcomers. Worth it? - Page 4
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0mgVitaminE
United States1278 Posts
Beyond that, I could argue that I play for the community. No other game has a community like starcraft does, and sites like teamliquid to support them. There is always something to do or take part in, and when you don't feel like it, you can watch a professional play the game you are attempting to get good at. The pro scene definitely adds excitement to the game, as well as things that you will want to try because your favorite progamer did them. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 25 2010 11:57 enzym wrote: i wouldnt recommend that. you learn a lot less in 2v2 because you are a lot less responsible for the outcome of the game. you arent the only target for being attacked either and thus also wont learn good builds. id approach it from the other side and find someone to play with where who wins or loses simply doesnt matter, like practicing with someone you know. i know it worked for me, while i would never learn to get my shit together by playing 2v2. maybe its different for different people though. But you'll get good fundamentals, and your friend can easily give you tips. Tonnes of the good pros started as team game players I'm pretty sure (I seem to recall Bisu being a 3v3 hunters guy). You eventually have to move to 1v1s of course, to learn how to 1v1, but for getting the mechanics down 2v2s are excellent I think. I didn't personally learn the game that way (I was 12~13 at the time and had no issue with losing 20 games for every win, given how much I was playing it was only a week or two before my wins started becoming a lot more frequent), but I think it's a good way. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
TL is probably the best place to start your SC career. Even though the talk is really high level here, it's not like other games where it's just people using a certain lingo, on TL, people have a very analytical thought process, and I'm sure you can get used to it very easily. To start, I would recommend playing sc1. The general concepts in both games are the same, sc2 is just dumbed down a lot. The most important thing is just to keep playing the game your way. What I found was that if I try to use someone else's build order or strategy, it doesn't really work, but if I keep on playing my own way, build orders and strategies come into place themselves. The key is not to memorize what to do in every single scenario, but to get a good understanding of the root mechanics of the game through experience, so you are able to respond to every situation on the fly. | ||
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MeditationError
Australia60 Posts
On March 25 2010 10:00 evilK wrote: Or is it closer to the sensation of WoW, you know, when you stop playing, look back to all the time you have spend playing it and think "what a waste of time"? (i suposse that if you are in this forums you are not going to answer the second option, but it will be very interesting to me to understand why is different of WoW). I'll tackle this one. WoW is awful in two ways. Firstly, it's a glorified slot machine, with carefully balanced rewards to keep you coming back for more, and secondly, it teaches the wrong things, a la: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060222/sirlin_01.shtml Wow does teach some interesting real-life things if you run a guild, and has more depth than most people give it credit for, but ultimately the person who sinks the most time wins at wow, and it teaches you very little that's very interesting outside of the game. Starcraft has very different lessons and very different demands. To improve at starcraft, you must be able think and assess quickly, juggle many different demands on your time and attention, react cooly under pressure, judge your opponent well. You need to be able to recognize/construct good plans, and adapt them well on the fly. Starcraft teaches interesting things about knowledge and decision making (e.g. don't bother scouting unless it can change what you're going to do). At very high level play, you'll need hands that move like lightning, but I think you're asking "is starcraft satisfying" more than "can I go pro". To answer your broader question, the beta is for blizzard to test balance, and they've made official statements acknowledging that it's not a particularly great way to learn. ladder will always be brutal, but you'll have a much smoother curve once it's released, and yes starcraft is worth perservering with. You don't need to get to pro to be able to enjoy the game. After a couple of dozen games you should already have the basics down and be able to get a good match even on the beta ladder. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
Don't play it if you only want to win. When it releases there will be many more players and you will find your level quicker but you will always find your level be that copper or platinum. By your level I mean a 50-50 win rate give or take a few % points. I had a friend complain that he thought the game was too hard and I asked him what his win rate was, he replied it was 55ish% and I laughed and said, then your doing fine. At least you can't be smurfed all afternoon like wc3 bnet was infamous for. | ||
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zealing
Canada806 Posts
to me you seam to be taking the GAME a bit to seriously  we love starcraft and most people here are very dedicated and spend literally years playing the game and perfecting their game play and becoming experienced to the point of people going to korea to become pros.what does this have to do with you? well first off all you might not belive it but you have an advantage here compared to the high up players. you see they had to take the time and figure builds out, in BW the 1rax expo became the first build for any starting terran, did he make it? figure it out? no he copied it from better players and learned from them. same goes for you. now we are in the beta so nothing is set in stone, and believe me when i say "there is always someone better then you and worse" and yes this game is a lot more tactical then it is strategical because it takes one guy to make a strategy which 1000 other guys can copy and master. some advise i can give you is to not take the game so seriously, don't focus on whos is better and how far ahead they are, focus on playing, practice and learn, 90% of tl players on the beta have been playing SC for years and have experience in this type of game play. just chill guy your too tense, no one going to ban you for posting something like this we gonna try and help you achieve whatever it is you want to achieve. gl hf | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
On March 25 2010 12:00 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: I would say that SC2 is far more mechanically demanding than BW. The only reason for the huge difference in APM is you aren't having to constantly cycle through multiple control groups of units and don't have to individually select all of your building structures. SC2 more than makes up for that in the constantly having to remember to do a much larger number of things. As a protoss player, for instance, I have to constantly be on my warpgates so that I don't miss a cycle, chronoboosting my non-warpgate production buildings/upgrade structures, producing probes, being mindful of my observers and managing my army. I'm sure I forgot about many other things. In BW, you could ignore a lot of things once you started/built them and base management is much less intensive. I'd have to say the biggest difference is mainly just managing large armies. Very high APM in BW was only really necessary since managing a large army and keeping up on your macro was very mechanically intense. However, good army management was only really necessary at a very high level of play. Which is why most people who aren't pros are macro players. Quality micro while keeping up on your macro just isn't possible without good mechanics. That's really the only big difference. I still feel as if I'm doing far more in SC2. Well your post surprised me. Mainly the first sentence since I've noticed that average APM seems lower across the board for nearly all replays I've checked. (This can of course be partially attributed to the fact that people are new to the game. However, I don't think being good at sc2 will require AS high apm as sc1 demanded.) The macro mechanics imo make it much LESS mechanically demanding. I am simply too slow to macro in sc1 via clicking every building so i htokey my gateways/rax's/hatches. In sc2 this doesn't put me at a disadvantage as it did in sc1 because there are plenty of hotkeys for everything since you can set multiple buildings to one hotkey. This is just one example, other things like smart cast also help so you can have 10 templars selected with full energy and still only cast one storm at a time without wasting any. This other features are additional features which help make the game a bit less mechanically demanding. | ||
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0neheart
United States92 Posts
it's like chess because it's hard and it's interesting. you're not expecting to win tournaments or make money, you're doing it because it's fun and it's something to get better at. (someone probably already said this before :\) | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
I started playing SC not that long ago and I started by playing the computer until I could beat it. Then I watched a bunch of commentated games on youtube (klazart <3) Then I jumped into iccup...and got mostly raped. Even though I had a pretty decent understanding of the game and knew standard build orders, I simply couldn't execute. So I played 3v3s because no one cares about losing and you can just learn the game at a relaxed pace. My 1v1 slowly improved even though I only played a handful of them. Then I found a friend of similar skill level and we started 2v2ing. This helped me get a better feel for slightly more competitive play (since it there is 2v2 laddering on iccup) but the skill level is slightly worse and the punishment not as great for mistakes(since your partner can cover for you). It is also a lot more fun if you are losing with a friend too. Last Iccup season we actually easily hit D+ and were closing in on C-, even though I had never even gotten close in 1v1. So yeah, the best way is to find a gametype that is more fun at your skill level and your mechanics DO improve, making it that much more fun when you go back to 1v1ing. | ||
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FrEaK[S.sIR]
2373 Posts
On March 25 2010 13:57 Jonoman92 wrote: Well your post surprised me. Mainly the first sentence since I've noticed that average APM seems lower across the board for nearly all replays I've checked. (This can of course be partially attributed to the fact that people are new to the game. However, I don't think being good at sc2 will require AS high apm as sc1 demanded.) The macro mechanics imo make it much LESS mechanically demanding. I am simply too slow to macro in sc1 via clicking every building so i htokey my gateways/rax's/hatches. In sc2 this doesn't put me at a disadvantage as it did in sc1 because there are plenty of hotkeys for everything since you can set multiple buildings to one hotkey. This is just one example, other things like smart cast also help so you can have 10 templars selected with full energy and still only cast one storm at a time without wasting any. This other features are additional features which help make the game a bit less mechanically demanding. I already said that there was a big difference in APM and I attributed it to the constant cycling of hotkeys and how that effected the game. You kind of ignored my post beyond that first sentence, it seems. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
APM // Mechanics wise - SC2 is much more forgiving (at this moment) for people who dont have 200+ APM. On SC1, I was at best C- with 130-140 APM (my mechanics prevented me from going any higher). I'm a little slower now, but it doesn't seem to matter in sc2 as much. I'm platinum level 1v1 and top silver (we keep playing top 8 gold and top 20 platinum players) with 66% winrate (my teammate is/was a D- sc1 player). Understanding the game itself helps a bunch. Knowing what you scout, or what you see while scouting means is very important. You only get this stuff from reading articles // watching replays or vods and playing the game. Some people don't ever really pick up that sense or intuition but still do well on the basis of mechanics. Playing the game now probably isn't the best time to be playing as its rather competitive since hardcore SC players are in it. (as well as people who pay a few hundred dollers for it...) So I feel like the majority of players are those who already have some interest // motivation // skill in the game or scbw. Do I think playing in the beta will help? Yes. If you play a bunch now and lose, and come release the quality of opponents will be much lower. People will be starting their own learning of the game and you will have had a head start. That doesnt mean you might necessarily be able to beat sc1 players out of the gates (and maybe you will) but you would be ahead of if you just started at release as well. Do I think starcraft is worth it? Yes. And no. It depends on why you play. If you want to be a progamer, I'd say most likely you wont be one. If you are playing to be the best, it wont be worth it. Unless you are, I dunno, Jaedong or Flash in sc1 there will always be somebody better then you. And even if you are the best how long will it be for? What sucks about playing to win, or playing to be the best is that after a certain point, none of your friends will want to play with you anymore. Unless you bring them along into a more competitive form of bw or sc2 you will stomp them all easily. Is that enough? I have a single friend who will play sc1 with me now because the others just cant keep up. Again, I'm not amazing at sc1, D+ last iccup season... but being that good makes you better then the vast majority of players already. Play for fun? sure. Play casually, play to be the best you can, whatever you want to play for. Personally, I'm at the point where I'm about as good as I can be without spending inordinate amounts of time training my mechanics (I understand the game rather well, I feel like I could make B- easily if I had even decent mechanics)..... Its pretty much the same with everything for me. I get to a point where I get to be as good as I can be without taking it super seriously to the next level. Like table tennis, I got to the point where I had a monster top spin, and decent playing skills in general (i was hitting winners against 2000 ranked players even if i lost to them all the time), but the consistency was lacking and the only way to get better from there was hours upon hours of drilling which I wasnt willing to do. In my opinion? play until you arnt auto lose to random people online. Play so you can play casually against your friends and still be able to win. (but make it appear they have a chance so they wont refuse to play against you) then decide if you want to take it to the next level or not. | ||
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ethos
Korea (South)26 Posts
I suspect that in your desire to win, you are approaching the game too scientifically, and are overloading your consciousness with disordered information. You should just play the game and trust your feelings. And when I say play the game, I mean lose, over and over again, without shame. If you feel you are playing with people consistently better than you, LOSE SOME MORE, drop a league, drop to rock bottom if need be. Things will be difficult at first, but after a while, you will be surprised at how much of the game you're internalizing. This will start with your initial build orders, which you will start to do without knowing you're doing them, like driving a car, and will continue on from there. All of that information, which was like a bed of unsown seeds now, will slowly fall into order in your subconsciousness. At this point, when you face a new patterns of play, 99% of the game will be instinctual, allowing you to focus your cognitive energy on analyzing and adapting to said patterns. You can seek the aid of your own intuition (which I recommend at first) or the help of the forums to do this until you've internalized the encounter. And you can continue doing this until your play becomes more and more nuanced. But the key I think is to practice with people at the same skill level as you. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10741 Posts
Play some ladder/ranking games. When you find an enemy with which you have fun/decent games and isn't an ass  , add him to your F-List and play 1on1's with him.In the beginning the pure strain of the Macro is enough to keep you busy and you improve even if your enemy isn't exploiting every weakness you show . | ||
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BrowneY
40 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
If you wanna learn fast, I'd recommend playing a lot and actively trying to improve certain aspects of your play: Maybe try to get high APM and good Multitasking or train one specific build until your timing is perfect. Watch a lot of VoD's and replays and try to understand why the pro's play how they play. The Beta is maybe kinda hard for newcomers, so I'd just try to enjoy the game and play as long as it's fun for you - when SC2 is available for the masses, you'll have an easier time I guess and more rewards for playing on a non-pro-level, like Avatar's you'll get for wins, statistics that aren't wiped in the near future etc. ^^' I've got abaout 250-300 games atm but I feel like I could play a lot more and would be more motivated with upcoming features of B.Net, but I'm not an aspiring progamer, so I just play for fun now trying out all the races and start really farming wins when SC2 comes out. ^^' So i'd focus on being the best of the worst for now, it's maybe too big of an endeavour if you try to become pro and it's just a lot of pressure you don't really need to put yourself under. I also felt a bit of a pressure to play, jsut because it's SC2 and you wan't to be good at it, but to become pro, you really have to make a decision and stick with it, so if you're not totally sure, just play for fun and look where it takes you. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
2) Starcraft has no leveling, no gear, none of that shit. The ONLY thing that distinguishes you from others is SKILL, and that is a beautiful thing. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
As many have said it's much more enjoyable to practice versus computers and through the single-player where the pressure of losing is off. The truth is SC players are addicted to the rush of the game. Whilst Chess is also fun it's a bit slow. Starcraft is an escape. When you're playing the game you're not thinking about anything else, you're totally engrossed in the game. You tend to think and analyse strategy more when you're not playing. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On March 25 2010 10:00 evilK wrote: why is different of WoW In WoW you train your character to become awesome, in Starcraft you train yourself to become awesome. Owning something awesome < being awesome. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On March 25 2010 20:31 Klive5ive wrote: I don't the Beta is a good place for a new player. As many have said it's much more enjoyable to practice versus computers and through the single-player where the pressure of losing is off. The truth is SC players are addicted to the rush of the game. Whilst Chess is also fun it's a bit slow. Starcraft is an escape. When you're playing the game you're not thinking about anything else, you're totally engrossed in the game. You tend to think and analyse strategy more when you're not playing. ppl have actually conducted a study analizing which parts of the brain is active when playing Starcraft1 with a progamer and a newb and the study has shown that the newb has lot's of areas active for planning, strategizing - it showed that he really was thinking hardcore - but the areas active for the pro were the areas for "instinct"! ^^' The Pro didn't need to think, it was just pure muscle-reactions and instinct. xD That just shows that Pro's are so involved in the game, that it just becomes instinct and they can use their thinking on a very strategic level, because they don't have to think constantly what to build next, how to react etc. but just worry about the big picture and be more creative. Just an interesting off-topic-post I wanted to make. ^^' | ||
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