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Expanding on a topic I had earlier, but a lot more fine tuned. Fast Reapers (like VERY fast) into Thor/marauders/reapers/medivac/scvs.
EDIT: (REPLAY on megaupload now) Replay against Incontrol:
[url blocked]
Concept: Early harassment with 3+ speed reapers just to keep the toss on their toes and not FE'ing/etc. Prevents any Zealot rushes/etc and can cripple poor base design. Move into Marauders to defend against the counter from Stalkers/etc. Get 1 thor up and move out rallying the medivacs to your force. Bring 5-6 scvs to repair the Thor constantly and build a bunker if you see that you will be outnumbered and just salvage it when it's no longer useful. Interested to see if you guys have any counters to this.
Rough BO (uses my Orbital Command first build):
SCV's
10/11 Rax
10/11 Ref
11th SCV
Orbital Command
Supply Depot
Tech Lab
2nd Ref
12/19 Reaper
Mule+scv's (continue constant scv)
2nd Reaper
Reaper speed
3rd Reaper
*switch to marauders if you haven't stopped the stalker tech somehow (unlikely)
As you get the money (roughly in this order):
Fac
2nd Rax
Armory when fac is done
Tech lab for rax+fac
Thor+Starport
I'd go a bit more in detail on this, but it's 2am and I've barely slept for the past 48 hours...
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Somebody wants his ID known.
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MrMoose
Canada176 Posts
I realized something cool today: you can't spell "reaper" without "rape" - it's a sign.
On a side note, I was watching some of your games against Louder with this build earlier - and it seems to me that reapers are really able to keep toss in his base for a long, long time. I would think that a good follow-up to 3-6 reapers harrassing would be a fast expo into marauders/tanks to stop the stalker counter when they are free to move out.
Basically if he moves out he has to leave 2-3 stalkers in his base to defend, making his attack weaker. If he doesn't, then just rape his probes, nexus, pylons etc etc. with reapers (rapers heh heh)
Anyway, this is just theorycrafting, coming from someone who (sadly) doesn't have a beta key.
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Ha, nice to see you post your build.
From watching your games, the impression I got is virtually no long term viability (talk about low econ) but it was great to watch nonetheless.
Provided some great lulz; you had that game vs machine btw (the one with the PF action).
Anyway, why stop them from FEing? Seems like an early expo is exactly what you want to go up against.
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quick question: who are you? because you play amazingly well but me and my friend have know idea who you are but are very fanboy already O.O
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I was watching your games on Louder's stream. First, you really need to be on top of your Mules with this build and cast them the first chance you get every time. You have so little econ anyway that the Mules are just super important. Also, keep in mind that additional SCV's work differently in this game. Patches are completely saturated by 2 workers, but any worker up to 2 works at 100% efficiency. Thus, since there are 8 patches in each main you should put only 16 SCV's total on minerals + the mule. With this in mind, I think that starting a second expansion around ~30 supply would be best. This is when your mineral line is completely saturated and any additional workers won't do anything. Under your build, you harass with reapers, then make marauders to hold off the Stalker counter. A marauder beats a stalker 1v1, and even better in groups because the concussive grenade allows you to target fire without damaged stalkers retreating. So maybe 3-4 marauders, then make an expansion and go for the Thors. Now the protoss will either expand or attack again. If they attack with zealots, then you may need more reapers since they do well against them. Against immortals, I think that Marauders with stim are best. You should be able to defend the expansion with Marauders + Thor + Tanks, and you can do more harassing with the Medivacs. This should give you a reasonable economic edge for the rest of the game.
Also, in the TVT I saw, it seemed that your income rate was actually greater than your opponents, who was doing a standard build, after the Mule came down. The Mule basically gives you five extra SCVs so this seems reasonable. Because of this and the fact that the your tech is so much faster, I think that this build can become standard for all matchups. You don't necessarily have to rush reapers in the beginning. Getting a reactor and massing marines quickly could work too.
Finally, all of the above is guesswork and theory from thinking about the game and watching streams, so definitely try out variations to see what works. Congrats on the build, by the way. It seems to be really ingenious and abuses the new Mule mechanic very well.
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I got destroyed a couple games ago by a quick reaper into heavy Thor push. I was completely off my game and let the reapers do way too much damage and I was way too far behind to deal with his Thors when they came. It didn't help I built an army that was terrible against Thors (colossus + stalkers).
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On February 20 2010 17:41 geno wrote:
I got destroyed a couple games ago by a quick reaper into heavy Thor push. I was completely off my game and let the reapers do way too much damage and I was way too far behind to deal with his Thors when they came. It didn't help I built an army that was terrible against Thors (colossus + stalkers).
Oh, that was me, ColdWave. I was trying to see if the Reaper-first into my TvP Thor/Hellion build works, instead of me going straight for Thor in TvP.
Seems like Protoss loves going 1 Base Void Ray these days, get 3 of them and attack.
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On February 20 2010 17:06 pencilcase wrote:
[...]With this in mind, I think that starting a second expansion around ~30 supply would be best.
If you're going for an econ build, you are correct. The build I posted here is a Thor timing rush (kinda all-in, but not) to try and capitalize on your early lead, but I'm working on a similar opening which leads into a Siege/Marauder Expand. I'll make another post with that idea when I get it figured out and play a decent game using it. Keep in mind Thors start to lose their effectiveness the longer the game goes it seems (void rays/chargelots/etc). Thinking a bit about this build last night, if you think they're going immortals (earlier than normal twi council+robo bay I believe), tech up to a single ghost to EMP. Once the shields are gone, the immortal will melt to the Thor+Marauders.
Also, in the TVT I saw, it seemed that your income rate was actually greater than your opponents, who was doing a standard build, after the Mule came down. The Mule basically gives you five extra SCVs so this seems reasonable. Because of this and the fact that the your tech is so much faster, I think that this build can become standard for all matchups. You don't necessarily have to rush reapers in the beginning. Getting a reactor and massing marines quickly could work too.
Yeah, that's what I don't get about people saying the opening is a low-econ. I was doing some tests last night trying different builds and it is in fact SLIGHTLY lower econ (end up with 1-2 fewer workers at around the 5min mark compared to an econ-boom build), but you get out a Reaper in 3min giving you scouting/harassing so you can save an scv on scouting (don't even really need to scout a proxy because you're already countering it). It's a trade-off, but has been proving to be very very worth it.
On February 20 2010 16:33 Spike wrote:
Ha, nice to see you post your build.
From watching your games, the impression I got is virtually no long term viability (talk about low econ) but it was great to watch nonetheless.
Provided some great lulz; you had that game vs machine btw (the one with the PF action).
Anyway, why stop them from FEing? Seems like an early expo is exactly what you want to go up against.
As I mentioned before, the opening gives you just as many possibilities as SD first, but you have a reaper out early. This build can be easily modified to branch into a fast expand or even an earlier tech, whatever you think is best in your game.
The timing of it ends up reaching their expo pretty much just as their Nexus/CC/Hatch is starting, so you can get them to cancel it as they have nothing to stop you, killing their worker in a second and moving into their main as normal. Because they've hurt their own tech to save up the minerals for FE'ing, you are at a HUGE advantage right there.
On February 20 2010 17:00 mOnion wrote:
quick question: who are you? because you play amazingly well but me and my friend have know idea who you are but are very fanboy already O.O
You don't know me yet, but you will ;-). Before SC2, I just played a bit of RTS for fun/competition, but never spent the time to make it big. I have every intention of becoming a professional in SC2 for as long as I can maintain it (yes I have A LOT of work to do, but I'm prepared to put it in). I'll be trying to get a stream going as soon as I can figure out all the requisite programs and show people some unorthodox, out of the box builds as the patches make them available. Until then, you can follow me on twitter @TorcHGaming or friend me for some games on SC2: TorcH.gaming .
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I liked your play very much. Looking forward to your stream. Good luck.
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It's not a bad build at all. the big issue is mid game Econ as expanding depends entirely on successful attacks. If you lose the first Thor squad and get countered by a good unit mix you can barely defend even without an expansion.
FYI torch represented USA wcg for wise star in china. He's a sharp guy. I think he'll be good at sc2 ^^
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On February 21 2010 01:14 TorcH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 16:33 Spike wrote:
Ha, nice to see you post your build.
From watching your games, the impression I got is virtually no long term viability (talk about low econ) but it was great to watch nonetheless.
Provided some great lulz; you had that game vs machine btw (the one with the PF action).
Anyway, why stop them from FEing? Seems like an early expo is exactly what you want to go up against.
As I mentioned before, the opening gives you just as many possibilities as SD first, but you have a reaper out early. This build can be easily modified to branch into a fast expand or even an earlier tech, whatever you think is best in your game. The timing of it ends up reaching their expo pretty much just as their Nexus/CC/Hatch is starting, so you can get them to cancel it as they have nothing to stop you, killing their worker in a second and moving into their main as normal. Because they've hurt their own tech to save up the minerals for FE'ing, you are at a HUGE advantage right there.
Man, was tired last night and reading what I wrote makes little sense.
What I meant to say is that you should be praying for any kind of fast expand build cause your army should be greater then his in strength.
Your fast expand build is very risky as you know. Seem that any attempts of FE in SC2 ends in a loss against a competent opponent. Hell, your BO punishes this.
Obviously prefer a large map/long positions with one entrance and a ramp/choke right by the natural. Though I wonder if it can work on desert, although you may feel exposed, your CC would effectively create a funnel if your opponent tries to run through the left side.
The reason people believe your build has such econ is because in a few of your games, when you don't expand or effectively harass them, your mineral intake falls behind your opponents.
This is especially true when you stop muleing to save for scan.
At one time, Louder pulled up the mineral stat in obs and you had less than 50% minerals mining than your opponent. But I don't remember who that was against and if you used this BO; could be the game vs Geoff.
And as you mentioned before, what intrigues me is the possibility of a better transition after you get fast mules.
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Thors are pretty useless thus far man.
In the right hands, reapers are the shit. With 3-4 of them you can gain a huge advantage and that leads to all sorts of possibilities.
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On February 20 2010 17:06 pencilcase wrote:
A marauder beats a stalker 1v1, and even better in groups because the concussive grenade allows you to target fire without damaged stalkers retreating.
Anyone else bothered by the fact that the goon replacement is so wimpy? Sure, approaching goons would get owned by set-up tanks, but once in range of anything, they did pretty well. Stalker just have so little HP and such low damage compared to the hole they are trying to fill... And now average HP is higher on units, with even marines starting at 45 and going to 55 with upgrade. Any many corresponding units also do higher damage than before. Just seems odd that protoss ranged tier 1.5 unit is basically the weakest one around. Immortals are much stronger, but they don't shoot air and are too expensive to be massed effectively. As a result, the toss multipurpose units seems pretty underpowered both from point of view that toss traditionally tended to have stronger individual basic units than other races and in terms of actual gameplay. Any thoughts?
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Just watched the replay, very cool opening but I don't much like Thors. Definitely going to try something like this though.
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I lost to this!!! ARGGG Torch I wish i couldve had revenge before I got dropped from Platinum 
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Your BO reminds me of how the terrans can defeat the zerg, and apparently, even us, the mighty protoss! I shall remember your name for striking terror into my heart.
edit: In other words: good BO. I hope protoss can find a way to kill reapers quickly, or that reapers get nerfed.
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Aiming for a thor push isn't that good. Thors get destroyed by immortals.
Marine Med into Thors is good, because the 25mm cannon from the thors (channelled) counters the collossus (100-dead) and Marine/Med upgraded can destroy a good portion of the protoss army.
Back that with a few siege tanks and those flying spellcasters and you're golden. Just stay ontop of upgrades.
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On February 21 2010 05:17 3FFA wrote:
Your BO reminds me of how the terrans can defeat the zerg, and apparently, even us, the mighty protoss! I shall remember your name for striking terror into my heart.
edit: In other words: good BO. I hope protoss can find a way to kill reapers quickly, or that reapers get nerfed.
I've tried this reaper opening a few times now (1300 plat) and it seems to fall apart when a toss opens with double gateway stalkers. If they go zealots you can get some wicked harass in but proper Stalker placement and this build fails. Regardless, it's still a strong opening and you can recover even if the reapers don't get any harass in.
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On February 21 2010 07:34 Tomed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2010 05:17 3FFA wrote:
Your BO reminds me of how the terrans can defeat the zerg, and apparently, even us, the mighty protoss! I shall remember your name for striking terror into my heart.
edit: In other words: good BO. I hope protoss can find a way to kill reapers quickly, or that reapers get nerfed. I've tried this reaper opening a few times now (1300 plat) and it seems to fall apart when a toss opens with double gateway stalkers. If they go zealots you can get some wicked harass in but proper Stalker placement and this build fails. Regardless, it's still a strong opening and you can recover even if the reapers don't get any harass in.
Can you post some replays where it failed? I'm guessing the transition wasn't quick enough or you overextended early, but I'd like to see what was actually going on.
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EPT
