Hey guys, I'm a D level Protoss right now, and I was just wondering your take on this strategy I tried to copy from while watching a stream.
The basis was that versus Zerg, he FE into citadel first, before Stargate. Research Leg Enhancements and throw down another Gateway. As the research ticks away and you pump Zealots from your 1, soon to be 2 gates, put down 2 Stargates and pump Corsairs. As soon as the speed upgrade finishes, rush out with whatever Zealots you have and harass the crap out of their Overlords with your massive Corsair army. You can either deny a 3rd, rush into the main and take out the pool/hydra den/spire, or go straight for workers.
I'm just curious as to what everyone else's take is on this (I browsed around the forum and didn't seem to see anything referring to this idea). I for one have crushed almost all of my recent Zerg opponents at the D/D+ level with this idea. It seems fairly weak against an early ling all-in, as I found out the hard way. But if protected properly, this seems to do massive damage to most zergs. I guess my question is, does this work for anyone else? Or for people at higher levels?
I'll try posting a replay as soon as I find out how ><;
[EDIT: Here's an example of me loosely using this idea against a Zerg on Destination. The only real difference here is instead of throwing up a lot of Gateways, I rushed observers after my first few Zealots to anticipate the Lurker counter I seem to always see. Causes the game to be drawn out very long. That and I suck at base management. Most games are about half as long as this ^^;
First of all, this build isn't any weaker vs zergling all-ins than any other build is after fe. Second, I don't get what you're trying to achieve with this OP.
"Hey look I always win, will I keep winning?"
BTW you should know that it works at "higher levels" since you saw it on stream in the first place -_-
I was just curious on people's opinions on the build, how reliable it could be, if there's some sort of counter that completely rapes it I ave yet to encounter. After all, I read the rules and the [?] is a request for information, unless I'm mistaken? I appreciate the VOD though, thank you very much. And true, the build shouldn't die to ling all-ins more than any other, that is probably just my lack of skill.
EDIT: The stream I was watching at the time was of a C- player, so I was also curious as to if it held up in levels beyond that, or as you cited in the pros.
a teammate of mine who's a high level zerg said this build is really popular atm and he struggles with it, it works really well because a lot of zergs will counter an early spinning forge (expected early +1 zealot attack) by going muta. then the duel stargates come into play and the sairs rape the overlords and the +1 zealots have a field day on zerglings.
I'm yet to try it tho, but it seems as if like most +1 zealot attacks, good sim city would simply stop it and lots of scourge will stop the corsair threat as usual.
OptimusTom, ur not alone with this build bud, its become quite common for p to open with speed zeal after FE, although perhaps not so common to switch into 2 stargate afterwords. i believe the trick is determining from early recon wether or not to attack before speed finishes, and or to ajust the timing of your build based on zergs early build. Their are alot of variations of when to time the attack with the zealots.
On February 10 2010 10:19 OptimusTom wrote: Hey guys, I'm a D level Protoss right now, and I was just wondering your take on this strategy I tried to copy from while watching a stream.
The basis was that versus Zerg, he FE into citadel first, before Stargate. Research Leg Enhancements and throw down another Gateway. As the research ticks away and you pump Zealots from your 1, soon to be 2 gates, put down 2 Stargates and pump Corsairs. As soon as the speed upgrade finishes, rush out with whatever Zealots you have and harass the crap out of their Overlords with your massive Corsair army. You can either deny a 3rd, rush into the main and take out the pool/hydra den/spire, or go straight for workers.
I'm just curious as to what everyone else's take is on this (I browsed around the forum and didn't seem to see anything referring to this idea). I for one have crushed almost all of my recent Zerg opponents at the D/D+ level with this idea. It seems fairly weak against an early ling all-in, as I found out the hard way. But if protected properly, this seems to do massive damage to most zergs. I guess my question is, does this work for anyone else? Or for people at higher levels?
I'll try posting a replay as soon as I find out how ><;
[EDIT: Here's an example of me loosely using this idea against a Zerg on Destination. The only real difference here is instead of throwing up a lot of Gateways, I rushed observers after my first few Zealots to anticipate the Lurker counter I seem to always see. Causes the game to be drawn out very long. That and I suck at base management. Most games are about half as long as this ^^;
I've watched Nony going this build few days ago when he was streaming, and i liked it very much. His execution was top notch, rushing into Zerg sim cities with 8+ Speedlots (+1), and after the 3rd is down (and all Zeals have burned down due to Mutas - who have just popped out - or zerglings), you have like 4 Corsairs in base to start terrorizing the skies.
Basically the fast zealot speed is a cheese designed to hit at a weird timing and fuck up a 3 hat lair zerg while the 2 stargate is your way of getting out of it if shit goes wrong or if the zerg survives with a bad eco but muta tech. It actually functions quite similarly to the old speedlot into archon build. The difference is that modern zergs have such good muta micro that archons cannot protect a probe line, especially with buildings blocking them. As such you need corsairs, and corsairs in sufficient numbers to stop a mutascourge allin wiping them out. You shouldn't always build up a fuckload of corsairs, that's situational and very bad (because v late storm) in the wrong contexts. But 150 gas thrown down for the extra production capacity is cheap and will save you if he has the muta. That's basically how and why it works. It's not a build designed for general use. It's a specific situational build to exploit a zerg with poor scouting doing a specific build.
On February 10 2010 10:57 Ftrunkz wrote: I'm yet to try it tho, but it seems as if like most +1 zealot attacks, good sim city would simply stop it and lots of scourge will stop the corsair threat as usual.
A careless zerg will often sim city at the standard timing (especially because his 4th and 5th hats are usually a part of it). This build hits before then.
A protoss with +1 air (standard with double stargate) and stacked corsairs will eat through scourge like they're not even there.
I was watching Nony's stream the other day and he used this build in every PvZ he did on tornado. So it works some what i higher levels. But nony was on his C+ account so he was playing kids that would lose to him no matter what he did. But what i did see is that he didnt kill any of the zerg straight up with it. BEcuase as zerg you look at the forge and see if the +1 is spinning. most of the zergs were ready for it and countered with a wall, good placed sunks and hydra's. Muta is a bad counter becuase of the dual stargate sair. That is imo anyways. and there are a few C/C+ zergs on my team that say mutas are bad counter. But over all the +1 speed lot timing attack build is good, Im C- protoss and iv been doing farely well with it. But like anything in this game, It has a counter it will never win you every game, and for builds to work you have to understand the goals of the build and how to execute them and how to recover and make the right decisions if it fails. Most of the time i seen nony retreating back to his base with what ever 4 or 5 lots he had left to defend while throwing up cannons and waiting for storms. So be scared of a hydra break if you do no damage, Cuz yo storms will be lait boy.
I think I saw nony doing it with subtle differences. For example, sometimes he would make citadel first then gate then 2 SG. Sometimes He would make 2 SG fisrt. I think it's a pretty cool build if you know how to make those subtle changes.
On February 10 2010 11:25 Manlot wrote: I think I saw nony doing it with subtle differences. For example, sometimes he would make citadel first then gate then 2 SG. Sometimes He would make 2 SG fisrt. I think it's a pretty cool build if you know how to make those subtle changes.
Altought maybe I didn't paid enought atention.
No, you're right. I've seen Nony do this a lot too. I'm pretty sure his timing and build choice depends on scouting information. He goes the Stargates first almost every time he can't scout information to see if it's a muta based or hydra based build. The advantages vs mutas are obvious, but vs hydras it lets yo stack your 4-6 corsairs and go to town on their supply limit. Since they have a bunch of hydras already, it really messes with them.
What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
It's a situational build. Yes, in many situations it is raped. However those are the situations in which it should not be used. The key to this build is knowing when to use it and when not to. It is not a standard build for general use.
On February 10 2010 11:44 kineSiS- wrote: What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
It would rape, I've had it done to me. The zerg just needs to scout very well.
Lurkers do work too, but normally after the timing of the zealot attack I push out against with 12 or so more zealots, getting pushed back by lurkers, After that, I have enough time for about 4 gateways of Zealots Dragoons, and teched to Observers in response. Then the lurkers kind of melt, unless the map is destination with the bridges like the replay I posted.
Probably the corsairs would pop out around 5:40, maybe 5:20 if you cut probes, and that would help against those builds because you would be able to scout them.
The build can work out really well, but it can also backfire. If zerg responds to your really fast +1 by going lurker tech instead of a spire, then he can still have hydra tech ready by the time your corsairs become a threat.
I don't have much experience against this, but I had little trouble holding off this rush against Nony a few days ago by only making 5 mutalisks to fend off the initial rush before transitioning into hydra tech. Of course despite being handed 2 waves of zealots with minimal damage, I still ended up getting run over...
If the zerg doesn't anticipate the corsairs and goes the normal 11 mutalisks, then you will probably be in a really good position. I think there was some 30 minute game between Jaedong and Rock on un'goro crater a long time ago where such happened.
On February 10 2010 11:44 kineSiS- wrote: What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
Okay now that I thought about this build, it can be actually be REALLY good versus Zergs. If you see Zergs doing the standard 3-Hatch Mutalisk into 5 Hatch Hydra, then this build would be fine if you get damage Zerg's base with the +1 Speedlot right before the Muta pops up but at that time you have already some Corsairs to defend against it and then continue popping Zealots to maybe end the game. BUT if the other guy goes Hydralisk (instead of Mutalisk), you know that he is not producing any Mutalisk soon, so that's STORM time! since you already have the Citadel and continue teching up for High Templar, WILL melt through the army.
EPT
