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[MSL] Power Underwhelming

Forum Index > News
488 CommentsPost a Reply
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[MSL] Power Underwhelming

Text byAtrioc
January 23rd, 2010 13:56 GMT
WARNING, THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS SPOILERS OF NATE MSL 2009 GRAND FINALS

FOR SPOILER FREE COVERAGE OF THE MSL FINALS, CLICK HERE

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[image loading]


In Game 3 on Odd-Eye of the MSL Grand Finals between Jaedong and Flash, during an important battle approximately 18 minutes into the game, a power outage seemingly caused by Flash's heating fan crashed both the player's computers, ending the game and destroying the replay.

KeSPA, using only information available from the VOD as the replay was not available, took a short commercial break and then concluded that there would be no regame, the win would be awarded to Jaedong and the series would resume at Game 4 on Fighting Spirit.

General consensus based on all available facts and opinions from high level Starcraft players indicates that Jaedong had a clear and definite advantage, but opinions remain split on whether or not giving him the win was the correct thing to do.

VOD of the Match


Kwark: That vod has another 30 seconds in it not shown on the playback. The defiler at 7 had just consumed under Flash's vision and his vessels had no energy to irradiate. In the last 3 seconds of play you can clearly see on the minimap that Flash's army aborted its attack on 7 and retreated to hold his min only. There can be no debate about whether Flash would have broken 7 or not because the vod shows him deciding not to attack it. Imo that pretty much closes the case on the game.




Nazgul's Opinion:

It is very hard to give an opinion on this without the full facts being out yet and opinions are going to vary a lot nonetheless I will give it my best shot. When watching the replay of game 3 between Jaedong and Flash it seemed to me like Jaedong was ahead by a pretty large margin. The build he used going 3 hatch before pool and actually getting double evo’s this time to out-upgrade Flash was really greedy and he managed to hold him off long enough to get to armor and speed upgraded ultras with nydus channels and defilers.

Upgrades
It seemed his ultras were at 5-2 most likely against 2-2 marines. I recall seeing the upgrades midgame at 2-1 (lings) vs 1-1 (marines) maybe someone can confirm this. The facts on who had which upgrades will start rolling in soon enough which will definitely improve such a theoretical discussion. Flash was going for a pure m&m vessel build with no tanks for support. These marines by themselves die pretty badly against ultra/swarm so he would need a whole lot of vessels to be able to get away with it. As we could see in the final shots the main army of Flash got destroyed by swarms right before the power blacked out and he would have to start building an army again from scratch. It is safe to assume he didn’t have 10 tanks sitting in his base to turtle his way to protecting his new expansion and soon enough once Jaedong replaces his army ultra swarm would have been attacking the 9 o clock expansion.

Bases
Flash’ main was already mined out and his mineral only was close to being mined out. Soon enough he would be playing from a single base. Currently sitting on 2 bases soon enough to be 1. Jaedong on the other hand had 4 bases with minerals available of which his main was possibly mining out soon. Although I don’t think his drone count in main was anything comparable to Flash’ expansion scvs and it would probably run for a while. That would mean there was a guaranteed 4 base vs 2 base and a potential 4/3 base vs 1 base period to come in the next few minutes of the game. This combined with the annihilation of the Terran army and the well upgraded Zerg units I genuinely do not believe Flash had a shot at winning this game. Sure you might argue “but its Flash” however that argument is a lot more valid when he doesn’t play against Jaedong. Between two players of a similar skill level I do not see a way for Terran to pull out a victory in a situation like this.

The Decision
Was it fair.. no it was not fair. It was not fair at all. Flash still thought he was in the game and he got a loss. Everyone saying the decision was not fair is absolutely correct. However KeSPA had to make a decision where there was no fair side at all. Someone was getting screwed regardless. Jaedong had the game won 99% and to make him re-play it would be more unfair than to give Flash the loss. By a large margin. To go from 99% to 50% is way worse than going from 1% to 0%. In my eyes KeSPA made the right decision.


Chill's alternate viewpoint:


Q: Assuming Jaedong was ahead, what are your thoughts on KeSPA's decision?

Chill: Its ridiculous, the precedent in the Starcraft community has always been to regame unless theres no possible way for one player to lose, and I dont even feel like Jaedong had an advantage at that point.

NEW from Chill: I just rewatched the VOD and JD was ahead but I still don't feel right about the decision. I like giving the win only if it's obvious one player can't lose.



Ret's opinion

I'd just like to say I think the descision Kespa made to award JD the win was the right one. He was playing on a T favored map...in a very very favorable position after having overcome all the imbalances that make this map so hard to play ZvT on. If you put jaedong back at the start of the game it gives flash an advantadge again...So regame is a lot worse than awarding Jaedong a win for a game he would win 99.9% of the time. He was about to get his 5th gas...Flash was outta minerals in about 2 minutes....with no vessels or tanks to fight Ultras. m&m in small numbers would have never broken jaedongs base at 7 o clock. So all in all the only right descision in my opinion.



[image loading]


Thanks to Ret, Nazgul, and Chill for giving such timely responses
We will keep this updated with any new informaion or insights from the Koreans on the KeSPA decision as they become available. Look forward to a full MSL finals recap focusing on the games themselves from the MSL news team in the future.
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Writerman what
endGame
Profile Joined June 2009
United States394 Posts
January 23 2010 13:58 GMT
#2
Good writeup, very prompt.
"...As the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must." -Thucydides
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
January 23 2010 13:59 GMT
#3
That was fast.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7760 Posts
January 23 2010 14:00 GMT
#4
CHILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. Yes. You da man :D.
ZZangDreamjOy
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada959 Posts
January 23 2010 14:01 GMT
#5
Although I understand that everyone wanted a regame or what not, don't blame Jaedong for this. It was MSL's fault for such a shoddily run tournament really. Jaedong was most definately ahead, and FlaSh had almost no way of coming back. If he had a ton of vessels, I'd say he could, but he was soon to be only mining on a min only, with barely any vessels. It was obvious Jaedong won it.
HitEmUp
endGame
Profile Joined June 2009
United States394 Posts
January 23 2010 14:05 GMT
#6
On January 23 2010 23:01 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:
Although I understand that everyone wanted a regame or what not, don't blame Jaedong for this. It was MSL's fault for such a shoddily run tournament really. Jaedong was most definately ahead, and FlaSh had almost no way of coming back. If he had a ton of vessels, I'd say he could, but he was soon to be only mining on a min only, with barely any vessels. It was obvious Jaedong won it.


Oh Absolutely. Neither player is to blame. It seems its just an unfortunate circumstance. And its a terrible position for both players. I can't agree with you that the game was entirely over, and I do feel that a regame was merited, but even so that is unfair to Jaedong. It's just too bad that this had to happen.
"...As the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must." -Thucydides
Sapraedon
Profile Joined January 2010
United Kingdom142 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-23 14:06:51
January 23 2010 14:06 GMT
#7
That was indeed fast and will hopefully dispell a lot of the crap flying around.

Edit: MBC lol
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7760 Posts
January 23 2010 14:06 GMT
#8
Chill can you explain your opinion a bit? I'm legitimately curious just because I wanna hear what you have to say about it
dibban
Profile Joined July 2008
Sweden1279 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-23 14:09:22
January 23 2010 14:06 GMT
#9
That was quick! Totally agree with Ret/Nazgul, imo no option would be totally fair, but this was the most fair one, in a regame JD might not have dared to do the same build giving him a disadvantage or just be forced to do it anyway to actually have a chance of winning, just to be punished by a bunker rush.
이제동 - 이영호 since '07.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-23 14:15:11
January 23 2010 14:07 GMT
#10
I totally agree with Chill. As long as Flash had some cognizable chance of winning this game (which, based on all the debate and particularly IdrA's opinion I think he did), there is no way KeSPA should have awarded the win to Jaedong. Awarding a win is the equivalent of a conviction — better to err on the side of caution and give Jaedong another shot to win the game than to rob Flash of his.

Perhaps a useful way to think about this standard for awarding a win is to ask "is this a situation in which we would be surprised to see the losing player type out?" If the answer to this question is yes, it is wrong to award the game to the winning player.
✌
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-23 14:13:08
January 23 2010 14:10 GMT
#11
This completely shocked me tbh


In this game, there is a disconnect and KeSPA do their deliberation thing. They were actually going to give Bisu the regame IF he had had his DT pop out of his gateway. It didnt, so they gave the win to July. Now this game was a lot more over than the Flash/Jaedong encounter and if they were actually going to give a regame based on one dt then seriously, what kind of travesty occurred in this the biggest final of all time?
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-23 14:12:36
January 23 2010 14:12 GMT
#12
POGGERS
Alethios
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
New Zealand2765 Posts
January 23 2010 14:13 GMT
#13
Yeah it was 2-1 Lings 1-1 marines.

Can't agree with Chill here. Plenty off sports employ exactly the same methods as Kespa did in game 3. Do I wish it hadn't happened? Yes. But it was the right thing to do regardless.
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42249 Posts
January 23 2010 14:13 GMT
#14
Nazgul puts Flash's chances at 1%. Ret is a fair bit harsher putting them on 0.1%. Ultimately you have to draw a line on chance of winning the game and just say "no, this shit is over".
Shit was over in that game. 2 empty vessels. 0 tanks. 0 mines. 1 group of mnm. 5 gases and armour upgraded ultralisks. That's it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7760 Posts
January 23 2010 14:14 GMT
#15
Chill, JWD, and Plexa helping me feel less retarded about my opinion about the regame situation. Thank god.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42249 Posts
January 23 2010 14:16 GMT
#16
Plexa
You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
R0YAL
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1768 Posts
January 23 2010 14:16 GMT
#17
good writeup
id just like to say that this whole thing definately ticked me off... super fail by mbc... the most epic MSL in history and theres a poweroutage midgame... blehhh
i feel Flash got cheated but gratz to JD for the win, he earned it but it would have been awesome if Flash at least got to play it out even if he was going to lose
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-23 14:20:00
January 23 2010 14:17 GMT
#18
I can't understand how people say giving a win is better than re-doing it.
He could have won, good enough for me! let's just say he won.
Rather than
We don't know so let's do it again.

Jaedong didn't win that game but they gave it to him anyways.


also, it's impossible to see upgrades from the youtube VOD but I'm pretty sure Flash had more than 1-1, could be wrong though
KTY
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
January 23 2010 14:19 GMT
#19
On January 23 2010 23:16 KwarK wrote:
Plexa
You can't say "well they considered doing something really stupid one time so they should totally have done this thing which is marginally less stupid". If they'd decided on a regame in that Bisu July it would have been a travesty. July had a prepared cheese which he couldn't do twice and the game was over. That doesn't mean that anything less of a travesty than that is fine.

... Rainbow vs July

Rainbow cheeses July with some cute goon/reaver timing push
disconnect
game isnt over, regame occurs
July rapes rainbow since his cheese is spent

Fair? I'm not prepared to comment on that. However, this decision IS inconsistent with every other decision kespa has made as far as I am aware of. Hell, let's go back further - YellOw vs Xellos, it happened there too.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-23 14:20:55
January 23 2010 14:20 GMT
#20
Amazing work, nice to have it up so quickly. Will definitely be a finals to remember.

Its an unfortunate result, as Jaedong didn't even look like he was enjoying his win when collecting the trophy and its too bad it had to go down this way. Ridiculous situation that should have never happened to begin with (how fucking long have they been running tournaments? the power went out?).
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
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